Drew Smith: 0:00

Hello, and welcome to Looking Out The Podcast, in which we connect the dots across mobility, design, and culture. My name is Drew Smith. I am a design strategist and coach living and working in Sydney, New South Wales, Australia, and all of these opinions are my own.

Joe Simpson: 0:23

And my name is Joe Simpson. I'm a design and product strategist working in Europe for one of the automotive OEMs whose views I do not, and have never represented on this show.

Drew Smith: 0:38

So with those disclaimers out of the way, We're going to talk about Bum ba da bum ba baaaa JAGUAR!

Joe Simpson: 0:49

This

Drew Smith: 0:51

the type 00 What we think it means Where it's come from Bum And where we think it might be all going.

Joe Simpson: 1:09

we were both so interested in what's happened over the last two weeks and have talked about it at such great length on our text conversations and with many of the people we know around the industry, we thought we'd put together, um, a, well, what will turn out to probably not be very short podcast about, yeah, as Drew says, what it all means, where it's all going and, uh, yeah, what we think of it. I'm going to, right, so I've decided I'm good. I've decided, that, two things. One, I'm gonna play more of a devil's advocate role of positivity around it. Because,

Drew Smith: 1:48

You need a job?

Joe Simpson: 1:51

Fuck off! No! Because, I think it's more interesting, If we do a kind of, I don't know. Slightly differing views, perspective

Drew Smith: 2:05

Oh, yeah,

Joe Simpson: 2:06

and have a,

Drew Smith: 2:07

a hundred percent,

Joe Simpson: 2:08

don't, but don't you think, and don't you, and the other thing is, and the other thing is, two days of lying on your back on opioids does funny things to your brain. Um, so, um. My back is still quite fucked. I went to the osteopath today. It's a little bit better. I can sit down now, which is nice. Um, but, I really want to try to keep a focus on what it means rather than whether we like it or not.

Drew Smith: 2:41

sure,

Joe Simpson: 2:41

Cause, cause I think Inevitably, but I think that's what I struggle with a bit, um, from a lot of the commentary. And this is where the whole fucking, uh, but it's not for me, uh, it's fine, I'm not Target, I haven't got the money to buy it, sort of like attitude thing comes from. And as I said to you yesterday, I think this then creates a sort of weird circle jerk of sort of excusing yourself from trying to understand things. And I suppose I come at it from the point of view that as a journalist you should try to do that. But I think journalists come at it from the point of view of I shouldn't, I shouldn't always force my own opinion on people so I'll try to step back from that. But I think for us as strategists and as people who sort of are involved in helping others shape the future for the better. I think trying to help decode and sort of articulate what is trying to be done, whether or not it's being done well, is actually really interesting.

Drew Smith: 3:45

So I had this amazing realization before, um, before I came on as I was kind of getting set up.

Joe Simpson: 3:55

Yeah.

Drew Smith: 3:56

If I squint,

Joe Simpson: 3:58

Yeah. I mean,

Drew Smith: 4:02

market.

Joe Simpson: 4:03

bit, yes. Yeah.

Drew Smith: 4:08

okay, so let, let me, let me run you through this. Like, queer as fuck, right? I wear clothes that don't conform to my external gender presentation without irony, because I actually enjoy doing that, right? Um, I've spent an awful lot of time in the clubs of Europe, uh, and if I think about the kind of money that I earned in my previous roles, I could very easily finance one of these things, right?

Joe Simpson: 4:45

Yeah.

Drew Smith: 4:45

So, so, that was a really interesting realisation for me, like Shit! Like,

Joe Simpson: 4:54

I'm nearly Target. And you're, you know, you're in your forties.

Drew Smith: 4:59

and I'm in my 40s, so I'm 20, I'm 20 years younger probably than what the average age of a previous Jaguar or car buyer.

Joe Simpson: 5:08

will be older, but general car buyer. Like, late fifties, early sixties.

Drew Smith: 5:12

Right. So, oh, and I'm an urban dweller.

Joe Simpson: 5:16

Yeah. And you live in a cool place. Sydney.

Drew Smith: 5:21

I mean, if you want to call it cool, fine. I like it. It's great. But, but all this to say that from, because I too have had a problem with the whole, meh, it's not for me. Like, and it's felt like the whole, it's not for me thing. Like if you're not a strategist, fine. Right. And if you're not a journalist, fine. Fine.

Joe Simpson: 5:46

Mm hmm.

Drew Smith: 5:46

But if you are, as we are, like we're both strategists, I think we have a responsibility to do our job,

Joe Simpson: 5:56

Yeah,

Drew Smith: 5:56

is to think through what this thing is, what it represents, and who it's for, and to have a, have a punt at working out whether it actually

Joe Simpson: 6:08

achieves that, succeeds.

Drew Smith: 6:10

yeah, fits the brief. Now, now, the, the one qualification that I will put around, like, the, the, I'm, I'm the target market thing. Like, obviously they're talking about, you know, wanting to target this thing at ultra high net worth individuals. Um, that, that is

Joe Simpson: 6:27

telling everyone you're ultra high net worth.

Drew Smith: 6:30

Yeah, sorry. Not ultra high net worth, but.

Joe Simpson: 6:33

Just high net worth.

Drew Smith: 6:36

Good enough, right? Good enough for this to be an aspirational product.

Joe Simpson: 6:42

Yeah.

Drew Smith: 6:42

To be something that should be making me go, Hmm, yeah, like, Why

Joe Simpson: 6:47

I mean,

Drew Smith: 6:48

And it doesn't. It very clearly doesn't. So that's kind of the personal thing for me out of the way.

Joe Simpson: 6:55

okay.

Drew Smith: 6:57

Let's dive

Joe Simpson: 6:59

can come back to that. I think, I think it's still interesting to think about who, a lot about who it is for, who is it going to appeal to and why, or who are they trying to talk to and how much of this is sort of like signal and noise, and then what, what they're doing strategically in trying to sort of set up, I think, an arc that began, What in the end of November with the brand video and actually only reaches the road and customers later in 2026, or be it, we're going to see production cars next year. So how do you work that narrative arc and hold attention and interest because fucking hell they've got attention. Like, they have got the world's attention. Um, but how do you work that and sustain it in what is a attention economy, and by that we mean short attention span economy. Um, I think that's really interesting because I think there's, to me, it's one of the many, many tensions that exist here, like this short attention span economy, things that are kind of like fashion and sort of flights of kind of, uh, sort of trends against a car, which is an inherently a much longer lasting or much sort of like longer term proposition. But then that takes me back to the kind of people who it's aimed for, who we know. cycle and cycle through cars much much much more quickly than most of the people listening to this or you and I

Drew Smith: 8:44

And, and I think, I think there's a really interesting thing to pull apart there, which is, if you're wanting to build brand loyalty, is that the kind of customer you want to be? Aiming for if, if we know that they cycle through cars, if we know that they cycle through brands based on whatever is hot at the

Joe Simpson: 9:17

Trendy

Drew Smith: 9:19

yeah, like, how do you build a sustainable core customer base? With that cohort. And, and there's something really interesting there if you think about, because we're talking about luxury brands here, right? Jaguar wants to position itself no longer as a premium brand, but as a true luxury brand. And My Yeah. It's, it's an assumption, but it's one that I think is fairly well informed that is that if you look at the true luxury brands of this world, and I mean, let's take Hermes as the exemplar. Hermes will have a core base, right? That spends over the course of decades. Buying the stuff for which the brand is most well known. Uh, the, the, the stuff that feels deeply rooted in the history, I would say, of the brand. And then there are going to be the kind of the seasonal buyers, the people who kind of dip in and dip out depending on whatever sort of limited edition is coming, kind of coming with this drop, with this season, whatever. But it's that core contingent that is always there, that is always sustaining the brand and has probably done so intergenerationally, given their wealth and given probably a family affiliation with that brand as well. And it's been a really, is the other interesting thing about Jaguar kind of deleting its history is that 90 years of equity or 100 years of equity, whatever it is, that ability for people to place themselves in the long arc of a brand story, to root themselves in something bigger than themselves, has now disappeared. Because Jaguar has become ahistorical. Although, although, they kind of went back on that at the launch in Miami by referencing the E Type.

Joe Simpson: 12:03

I I I'm not,

Drew Smith: 12:04

Help me out, Joe.

Joe Simpson: 12:06

well, I don't entirely agree, and I think I'm gonna sort of come at it from a slightly different angle. And there are a few things here, and we could spend the entire episode just unpacking those. So, you know, has it deleted, has it deleted history or not? Um, is Jaguar's history essentially the E type and that's it? Because there's some quite good sort of takedowns and explainers online which talk about how, you know, E type and XJS accepted. Okay, XJ. What is Jaguar? What is the history? Um, I think you're absolutely right that most premium and luxury brands sit in this kind of historical story arc. We were talking about Renault referencing retro two weeks ago, or referencing their history two weeks ago. And that being one of the only ways to differentiate against a, um, like the kind of influx of new brands and Chinese brands. But what I think he's. I'll just skip over all that. What I think is interesting is it feels like the, the, the customer base that they had was not going to sustain the brand.

Drew Smith: 13:17

Sure.

Joe Simpson: 13:17

It was going to, it was dying,

Drew Smith: 13:20

Fine.

Joe Simpson: 13:21

literally and metaphorically. have somehow managed to, Well, for many reasons, managed to miss a, a, a, a generation that's sort of coming up. People that are probably a bit older than us that are attached to, certainly in the West, brands like BMW and Mercedes, I don't think would have considered a Jag. They weren't flowing into the brand. And so they don't really have, to come back to your Hermes analogy, I don't think, or I think probably what they've considered is they didn't really have that core base of customers to sustain them. So instead, what this is trying to do is do an enormous pivot to the other side and pick up much younger, higher net worth individuals, as you say, who are into the latest trends and flit brands. However, they are influential And if you capture those people by having something that is fundamentally very arresting visually, um, and very striking and makes a strong statement, um, those people will start a kind of new arc for your brand. Um, which is then, yes, very difficult to sustain with something like a car because it's inherently more fashionable, but I would say two things. One is that, you then pull in a bunch of people who are more of a, um, sort of tourist follower along, you know, who will be like, Oh, that's, you know, these people are fundamentally influential people, people in the public eye, people who are celebrities, people who are in sort of industries like music and fashion, they will have influence. They then pull along a bunch of people who fundamentally are less influential, but are heavily influenced by, you know, sort of big. public names and by what's happening in social media. Um, and then secondarily, and I think the concept, I believe, hints at, sort of, towards this, and maybe we'll come back to this in a minute. Maybe they have a plan, um, to sustain and update and through things like CMF, And personalization continue to kind of keep it bubbling along. So when you think about what. Rolls Royce did when they introduced the Black Badge sub brand. It wasn't at all to my taste and I didn't think it was Rolls Royce. But it lowered their customer age by 10 years. It brought in new people to the brand by their own, uh, sort of admission. And it raised the average price point and the level of personalization that was going on in the cars by like tens of thousands of euros. So as far as they're concerned, it's kind of win, win, win. And I think Jaguar might be sort of trying to take from that playbook.

Drew Smith: 16:28

What, what, what does Jaguar now stand for?

Joe Simpson: 16:33

This, I think is one of the key questions that's still not fully answered from what we saw in the brand, uh, the, the brand video and the cars. Well.

Drew Smith: 16:44

go.

Joe Simpson: 16:46

Apparently, I mean, in terms of words, uh, modern,

Drew Smith: 16:49

what does it mean

Joe Simpson: 16:50

modernism, exuberance, modernism, exuberance, and what was the other one? I can't remember. Um, but I think what it's, I think what it's trying to stand for is, um, something that is not. not in the kind of automotive realm. It's trying to position itself as a fashion luxury good that's not encumbered and hindered by history. So to me, what Jaguar is trying to stand for is similar to the kind of startup brands, but with a historical name. So it's trying to do something kind of new, And that's outside of the, the kind of like, the traditional kind of car sphere, um, with the Jaguar name. Um, and I, yeah, I mean, I, I don't think we have all the answers yet. I don't fully see it. I feel like they've said more about what they're not and what they don't want to do than what they are. And I, if I'm very honest, I'm not even sure they followed through on what they're not going to do. I mean, there's plenty of references in the car to things that are like past. And this is where maybe it, it, you know, let's see, it can go one of a couple of ways, it could really kind of like unravel, um, or it could be the, you know, this sort of, This could be, back to my kind of narrative arc, a drip feed of information, which grows into something which makes sense as we get towards the, the production cars. I think we'll really have to see what, what they are.

Drew Smith: 18:31

this whole, this whole wait and see thing just feels like a massive fucking cop out, actually. And, and I'm seeing a lot of people doing the wait and see thing. I think it's actually really dangerous when you are trying to effect a change. As radical as what Jaguar is trying to do, I think it's really dangerous to leave people asking questions like this, to leave a vacuum of substance and solidity on which to build.

Joe Simpson: 19:20

So you, let me just, you're saying that, to not be clear about what Jaguar stands for and represents, what is it most, um, We had this conversation again the other week, you know, Mercedes Benz builds the best luxury cars in the world, you know, uh, et cetera, et cetera. What is Jaguar? What is it most at? What does it stand for? What are the kind of ethics and fundamentals of the company?

Drew Smith: 19:49

And, and, and, what is it? substantive opinion on the role that it wants to play the consumer's life. And, and how does that then get expressed in a physical manifestation? Because as much as I, I, I have been party to you. car companies saying for a very long time, um, that we're not a car company, we're a technology company. Uh, like if you're saying that Jaguar wants to be a fashion brand, it's like same, same but different. Okay, cool. Um, but at the end of the day, you're still trying to sell a car. that opinion then manifests in a physical product that people can then start to build a set of associations with seems to me fairly fundamentally important at the beginning of this narrative arc. Like the foundation is being set now.

Joe Simpson: 21:07

Do you not think that it it's, that's more of a reflection on where we are Culturally, right now, where making a bang and having your moment in the sun and really being at the top of like, of news, uh, bulletins, you know, only ever lasts, and I suppose it's always been true, but only ever lasts for, for a few seconds.

Drew Smith: 21:35

Yes, yes,

Joe Simpson: 21:36

to make, to basically make a, to make a statement to kind of, uh, you know, be, be sort of seen is now the priority, not rather than building on what you stand for and what you mean.

Drew Smith: 21:52

So if you're going to do that, get it right. And I don't think Jaguar got this right. I, I,

Joe Simpson: 22:01

what, this is great. So what don't you think they got right?

Drew Smith: 22:05

so the, the Overton window. I, what, what is acceptable kind of public discourse? Um, around, um, what is termed pejoratively woke politics

Joe Simpson: 22:28

Uh huh.

Drew Smith: 22:30

has shifted dramatically in the past couple of years, right? The fact that wokeism and the woke mind virus is now used as a pejorative term to attack. people like me

Joe Simpson: 22:49

Oh, and any.

Drew Smith: 22:52

Pietrasanti, right?

Joe Simpson: 22:54

yeah.

Drew Smith: 22:57

that, that the, the, the relatively brief, I would say, window of acceptability that we enjoyed has shifted. Um, are examples of that happening well in advance of the launch of Jaguar's video on the 19th of November. Bud Light was one of many canaries in the coal mine that a strategy team could have looked at and gone, hmm, shit. Probably need to rethink the foundations that we're going to lay for this brand. Now, I think the, the, the idea that they want to chuck out their old customer base, or at least treat them with, I think what amounts to a certain degree of disdain is a dangerous thing to do. It's a very, very dangerous thing to do.

Joe Simpson: 24:05

And I absolutely, sorry, I'm not sure you're finished, but I would say I absolutely agree with you because I don't think you should ever treat any customers with disdain. And most car companies I think just want to, in a very basic way, sell

Drew Smith: 24:28

sell, sell more cars. Joe,

Joe Simpson: 24:30

they don't really mind who, who buys

Drew Smith: 24:33

You don't want to, you don't want to treat anybody, whether they're customers or not, actually, you don't want to treat anybody with disdain, because actually, if you're thinking about selling, you want to think about everybody as a potential customer, right?

Joe Simpson: 24:50

Yes. Right. And yet I feel that what the, we talked about whether we, whether this ends up in the cut on the podcast, I don't know, but we talked about, I came in and said to you, I want to talk not about what. per se, what we, what our opinion is on this, but the meaning behind it.

Drew Smith: 25:13

Sure.

Joe Simpson: 25:14

I think, I think the meaning behind it is that Jaguar on what it stood for and it's to a degree, it's customer base was so, um, was, was almost like it, to your point, is kind of an identity politics thing. And it was aligned with a very old fashioned, very, um, And in places problematic image of the types of people who I think are absolutely the opposite of people who they now want to speak to. And they would never have been able to appeal to the types of people who they fundamentally need to sell cars to. if they'd have tried to kind of entertain the old guy. So I guess my question to you is, okay, so if you're in their position, what would you have done? How do you walk the tightrope? Yeah, the tight Christ. Can't say it. Tightrope between Let's over horribly stereotype here. Thank you. The gin drinking gammon, and the, um, the, and the woke, uh, young, high net worth influencers.

Drew Smith: 26:44

I Language is a really interesting thing to me.

Joe Simpson: 26:53

And, and we're gonna cut that bit out because it didn't make Joe look that smart.

Drew Smith: 26:58

Language is a really interesting thing to me and I'm gonna go out on a limb here and there will be people, I'm sure, particularly within Jaguar, if they're listening, hi, we love you, we really do, we care enormously. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this chat. Um, I've been thinking about this a lot. Like, what would I have done? And the thing that keeps coming back to me is that grace, space and pace left so much room for just an incredible set of interpretations as a core set of values. Um, that I feel would have given the brand the room to grow, to shift. But also probably wouldn't have landed it in anywhere because grace is key here, right? This word, this word grace, there's grace in behavior. There's grace in form. There's grace in how you show up. And if I think about Luxury. True luxury. There is an element of grace to a lot of it. Um. And, and so I can understand why you'd want to totally rein, reinvent the physical manifestation of the product, but surely there could have been some, something that keeps you rooted in, in what had made the brand great. And it's not the gin and gammon set, the gin and gammon set, the gin and jack set. Although, again, there is something kind of loose and fast living about the Gin and Jag set that, again, could have been transposed, I think, in perhaps a rather delightful way. You know, there was that amazing thing that Owen Rey said to us when I sent him a photo of a, of a Mercedes, R 1 0 7, and I kind of put Jags kind of in a bit of a similar place to R 1 0 7 Merckx, you know, it's like driven by a, by a. blonde, you know, two gins to the wind who drives off in a fog of Chanel number five and Marlboro light, you know, like it's sort of very evocative, you

Joe Simpson: 29:50

appealing sort of image.

Drew Smith: 29:53

know, and, and, and I think what's happened here is that the brand has almost taken itself too seriously. One of the truly delightful things about Jaguar was that it was more relaxed. Like it was a bit sort of devil may care. Um, and that, that gave it a, a very different presence in the market from You know, the staunchly Teutonic offerings of, of, I would say, BMW and, and, and Mercedes historically. And I'm reminded of, I'm reminded of the time when Volvo, right? Tried to be naughty. Right? The, the Steve Matten S60. And the campaign around that was like, I forget what it was, but it basically, there were Volvo ads with the word naughty in them. No.

Joe Simpson: 30:58

I've just died off camera. I remember that.

Drew Smith: 31:02

Right. Like it's, it's, it's really hard to erase,

Joe Simpson: 31:12

History.

Drew Smith: 31:12

to erase history, to erase cultural associations. So how do you find a way to work with it and reinvent it and Reimagine it because there's a there's so much cultural Goodwill there may not be a whole bunch of custom But there is goodwill And that goodwill can go an awfully long way to helping you reinvent and reposition a brand No

Joe Simpson: 31:45

really fascinating about this whole thing. The brand was just backed into a corner. It wasn't going to survive with that tremendous amount of goodwill and care for the brand that clearly exists out there based on the outpouring that there has been. So, what do you

Drew Smith: 32:15

So so here's the just to be clear i'm not saying that the brand should have stayed the same

Joe Simpson: 32:21

No, I know you're not.

Drew Smith: 32:23

Right? What I am saying is that you could have worked with rather than against the cultural capital that you had.

Joe Simpson: 32:35

While I agree, I'm still not sure that it would have had the impact that it's had.

Drew Smith: 32:42

What is that impact? Like, what is that impact though, Joe? Like, like, like, tell me, tell me how you categorize that impact.

Joe Simpson: 32:51

well, I can never remember a time when people both who are friends and contacts from within the car industry, but much more so people who are not, have messaged me, messaged you saying, wow, what do you think? I can't remember the last time there was a car brand being talked about on radio for today. And I need to be really, I think there is something to explore here about the nationality, not in the way that you might expect us to talk about it, but in terms of, although I don't live in the UK anymore, a lot of the connections I have are UK based. A lot of my news feeds are UK news. A lot of my connections on social media come from the UK. And I think Jaguar is a British brand that is fundamentally known and loved in the UK for various reasons. And the perspective from within the UK is probably quite different to how it is in say, Germany or the USA or China. Um, nonetheless, I think to have They will feel very happy, I imagine, to have got that coverage and to have raised awareness of their brand and have people talk about them again and remember them. Like I think many people. For all the fondness that you described, I think there were probably many people that had forgotten that it existed at all. Um, I come back to my. And I'm obviously in a position here where I'm, yeah, thinking I'm interpreting meaning. How can you sustain that when you're two years out from delivering products to customers? Will that work? Has the, has the divisive and negative side of it? Um, Will that ultimately do you more damage? I'm not sure either of us believe in the sort of adage of like, you know, the sort of There's only one word one thing sort of Worse than you know being talked about in a negative way and that's not being talked about at all Um, and and that sort of feels like it was a little bit this sort of way that jaguar sort of set this out Um, but I think there's a thing about The trying to relate to the kind of like rebellious, uh raffish, uh sometimes like punk culture that has come from the UK which I think they are or maybe are trying to, to play with. Um, and I think that they are sort of, what to me is really interesting is this kind of projection into the future about what their brand can represent, what the cars can do when, when you look at a future that is kind of completely the electric, the The whole rationale for premium brands, which is built on superior engineering, mostly in the department of the powertrain is largely gone away. And so what you're left with is the experience that you create as the customer, the design. like, which let's be frank, leads in terms of aesthetics. And then the meaning that that design transposes and communicates of the person that is seen in the product or associated with it, and then to what we've been talking about, what the brand means. Um, and I think if you're in a position where you've got. Brands like Rolls Royce and Bentley who people saying they're trying to compete with but they are those brands are above this price point and if your Quiet luxury space is very much owned by the likes of Still some Mercedes and perhaps Volvo and you know Sort of like brands like that and I, and, and if you in a stable where you've already got Land Rover and the Range Rover brand doing what it does with kind of SUVs, where are you, where do you

Drew Smith: 37:33

Where do you fit?

Joe Simpson: 37:35

where, like what, and, and I think, I think in fairness to them, that this was the sort of a bit, the one place they could go, do I think it's spot on? No. Is it to my taste? No, but is it interesting what they're trying to play with? And can I see some of, uh, the, the kind of, for me, does some of this sort of intention and the meaning come across? Yes. You know, um, but how do you feel? I mean, you told us how you feel, but, but I think I'm trying to get more into the, the product side is, is kind of interesting and try to sort of lift up the meaning of what the actual concept tells us.

Drew Smith: 38:18

I mean, I think the context, the context from which a product comes forth is a really interesting thing to explore. In terms of what it might say about that product contains in terms of an animating spirit, if you like. Um, so two stories here. Uh, one was reported in the press many, many, many years ago. Uh, when Jerry was,

Joe Simpson: 39:00

I was just about to, are these stories going to centre on a certain G. McGovern by any chance?

Drew Smith: 39:06

Jerry, Professor Jerry McGovern, OBE, Chief Creative Officer. I think that's the title.

Joe Simpson: 39:15

Title, yeah.

Drew Smith: 39:18

Um, so when he was at Lincoln, he reportedly walked into a room of Lincoln dealers, uh, to present a concept or a series of concepts or to make some kind of presentation and basically said to them, look, all of your customers are going to die. So we need to do something different. I don't think Jerry lasted very long at Lincoln after that. Um, if memory serves,

Joe Simpson: 39:49

He might have been right though. And I, and

Drew Smith: 39:55

Like I want to, I want to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, right? And, and, and I also want to give credit where it's due to the stuff that he oversaw while he was at Lincoln, because I think we all still look back at that and go, fuck, if you want to reinterpret a brand, holy shit, like it was, it was remarkable, right?

Joe Simpson: 40:22

if you, if actually, if you're listening, sorry, quick interjection, go and have a look if you don't know them. The Lincoln concepts and actually for the sake of comparison the Cadillac concepts of yeah around that time sort of look at like a kind of period of like 1999 2003 there's the oh there's the Lincoln Mark 9 and then the Cadillac 16. Go and have a look at those and look at them in side profile and compare them to the Jaguar.

Drew Smith: 41:01

Um, anyway, so that's story number one. Story number two, um, you're actually involved in this one, Joe. Uh, we were at the Paris Motor Show, I believe it was. And, uh,

Joe Simpson: 41:17

2010.

Drew Smith: 41:18

Maybe. Uh, it was the launch of the Evoke. Evok? Evoke? Never been sure on

Joe Simpson: 41:24

It was a cracker of a show, that show.

Drew Smith: 41:27

It was a really good show. Some lovely citrons. Um, anyway, Joe and I at the time were writing

Joe Simpson: 41:36

very good reporting on car design news, if you can still find it.

Drew Smith: 41:39

Exactly. Um, we're, we're

Joe Simpson: 41:43

Designer's Night was interesting, wasn't it, Drew?

Drew Smith: 41:47

Is that the night that I got a motorcycle?

Joe Simpson: 41:51

Yes, it was, but not after, like, I think you left early because there were many people who wanted to, sort of, speak to you. And, and in fairness to him, I think it was the same show that Eric Gilly in the field did a call from Audi where he was like, No, no, no, they're not trying to take you down. No, no, no, I stand by the piece he's written. No, it's like, fair play to Eric, he properly, like, stood by us.

Drew Smith: 42:13

Yeah, no, that was, that was the night that I escaped on the back of a Honda Goldwing. Um,

Joe Simpson: 42:19

Anyway, I digress.

Drew Smith: 42:22

uh, so we're on the show floor. Um, Jerry was at Land Rover by this point. And, um, to be clear, uh, the invoke, well, the LRX concept was designed by Julian Thompson. It wasn't a Jerry McGovern

Joe Simpson: 42:38

Correct.

Drew Smith: 42:39

All that being said, either you or I, doesn't really matter, asked Jerry whether he thought that, not, not the Evoke per se, but kind of the association with Victoria Beckham as kind of chief, as like creative director for the Evoke project. What that would do in terms of the product's resonance with kind of the core Range Rover buying fraternity. And he turned to us and said, Do I look like I give a fuck?

Joe Simpson: 43:20

Fuck. I was holding a tape recorder. I remember.

Drew Smith: 43:26

This is, yeah, so this was on record. Um, Jerry, if you're listening, it was on record. Um, And,

Joe Simpson: 43:34

we might have edited it.

Drew Smith: 43:35

interview, the interview basically ended at that point, right? Um, because here was a response that was so aggressive towards what felt like a legitimate inquiry into, you know, vision for a brand. So look, I mention all of this to say that there's form. when it comes to taking a very aggressive attitude to a brand's history standing in the marketplace, people's perception of that brand.

Joe Simpson: 44:18

Yeah,

Drew Smith: 44:19

And I think it's also fair to say, based on my experience, my personal experience, that there is a culture. that exists within JLR that really doesn't take well to

Joe Simpson: 44:41

criticism.

Drew Smith: 44:42

criticism or questioning of authority. And I've done an awful lot of work in the organizational culture space over the years. And I've seen what certain types of aggressive leadership do and I've seen what To teams. And how that then manifests in kind of the product that comes out of those teams. I

Joe Simpson: 45:18

in the last episode, I believe are a result of the culture that creates them. Unhappy cars are often a result of an unhappy culture. Confused cars are often the result of a lack of clarity of leadership, uh, culture. And I think some of the best cars tend to come from cultures where people are Aligned pulling in the same direction. There's healthy discourse, healthy disagreement, but you know, people feel safe and can experiment because obviously within design, you need to be able to feel safe and not threatened. Um, in order to push boundaries, innovate, um, you need to be able to feel you can fail. I. We both know some of the backstory here, and I don't think it's particularly pretty. Um, this, at this point I would recommend you to go and read Adrian Clarke's two pieces on the Autopian. The one where he basically takes down the design of the car, um, and the other, perhaps even more interesting one, which talks about the brand and the, how Jaguar got itself here, and then some of the culture. And I think it's on record that, or it's, it's quite well known, that Jerry, when he was in charge of Land Rover, really didn't get on with Ian and Julian on the Jaguar side. And that when this, um, sort of reimagined project was kicked off and when they started work on the car, it was teams, they had teams set up and they competed against each other. And Jerry's sort of direction was make it more Range Rover. And it's actually the Land Rover team that won the competition and is sort of responsible for this car. Now, That's just to give you some background. I really don't want this to come across like I'm trying to defend bad behaviour, because I think people who know me well, or have known me around the industry, know that me and Gerry have not lost any love over the years, and we've had run ins and things too. Um, and, and I know people who've worked there, and it doesn't sound like it was a particularly happy place to work. What I will say, though, is that Jerry's track record and, uh, ability to seemingly put his finger on the pulse of culture, and what will resonate, not what customers want, but what will resonate, is, with the wild exception of the Discovery 5, um, second to none. And, that's it. He has led many extremely successful products, which are very good pieces of design, which have done extremely well commercially. And that's kind of what Jaguar needs. And he absolutely doesn't give two fucks about what anybody thinks about him. And, to some degree I see this as a bit of a middle finger to the establishment and everyone else and everybody that's crossed Jerry. Um, and yet he's managed to do it in a way where I think it can resonate with some of the people that they need to resonate with. And maybe it pains me a bit to say that, but I kind of want to just put it out there that I think that's maybe true. Um, doesn't excuse his behavior or mean that I don't feel sorry for some of the people who've worked at JLR or doesn't mean I want to work there, but I think it's, you know, it's interesting to reflect on this cultural aspect.

Drew Smith: 49:40

think the other thing that I would add is that ultimately that kind of behavior never, never ends well. Either for. I mean, obviously for the people, but also for the perpetrator.

Joe Simpson: 49:59

No, and,

Drew Smith: 50:00

and I think, and I think what's really interesting for me, like, I think, I think this point around having a finger on the pulse to kind of bring it back to the product and to the, the kind of the Overton window. Um, think things like Cybertruck, things like Elon, okay, so, so Cybertruck kind of shifted the Overton window for what's acceptable as automotive design. I mean, we would, we would violently disagree with that, with the fact that it is acceptable automotive design, but that's, you know, that's just an opinion. Like the Overton window has shifted for a number of people around what is acceptable. Elon Musk and the people like him have shifted the Overton window for what is an acceptable manifestation of masculinity

Joe Simpson: 51:04

right. I was just gonna say what's acceptable behavior,

Drew Smith: 51:08

and what is acceptable behavior. And I think you and I both. Can probably name a few examples of automotive industry people who have looked at Musk and decided, huh, that's a, that's a person I want to model myself on. And you see that behavior change, you see that start to manifest in the teams, and then ultimately you start to see that manifest in the product as well.

Joe Simpson: 51:44

Mm, and yeah, I, I can't help but wonder whether and this is This is in the realm of speculation right now but For all of what we've been discussing

Drew Smith: 52:05

Mm,

Joe Simpson: 52:06

the thing I'm most curious about Is Not necessarily the You design or the The product per se or where they're trying to reposition the brand It is the context of the world in a couple of years time because Right now Given the geopolitical context

Drew Smith: 52:38

mm

Joe Simpson: 52:39

I Really wonder how that internal team feel about what they've done and how it's actually going to work out there in the market. Because I don't for a minute believe that this is a particularly European centric sell.

Drew Smith: 53:00

mm

Joe Simpson: 53:01

And in the Chinese market, we have seen just in the last year, with luxury and premium European brands. Almost all of the problems that they face right now are created by the fact that in China, their sales are down 10, 20, 40,

Drew Smith: 53:29

down like

Joe Simpson: 53:30

40, yeah.

Drew Smith: 53:31

Oh,

Joe Simpson: 53:32

I mean, there's maybe it's not one of the brands is down 40%, maybe it's Volkswagen. Um, but on top of that, If you look at the mix of products that is selling, for the Chinese customers that want European luxury and are still buying into that, it's actually still associated with that historic, um, prestige of the internal combustion engine. If it's electric, hmm, forget it.

Drew Smith: 54:05

If it's electric, I can, I can actually get a better product from

Joe Simpson: 54:08

a better, a better domestic product. Um, no, I know it's going to say, and then if you look the other way, and I think there's a very big USA play here, but we are seeing the most enormous of wobbles in the U S market where already EV sales were not down. Let's be like realistic. They, they were. they were growing more slowly. The, the, the graph line was flattening, but then that graph line could be squashed by potentially, or none of us know yet, a Trump administration that comes in and slaps tariffs on any import, not, not just ones from China, uh, and takes away, um, incentives. Um, and I'm, I'm like, Ooh.

Drew Smith: 55:02

Can I? And, and, can I? So, so,

Joe Simpson: 55:06

Yeah, sorry, jump in.

Drew Smith: 55:07

let's be honest, the car looks like Fab One fucked a Cybertruck, okay? Like, it is, it is, it is outrageous, and blunt, and angry, and, like, it, it, to me,

Joe Simpson: 55:25

It's polarizing. Some people will say wow, some people will hate it.

Drew Smith: 55:30

But, but I think, I think what it appeals to as a reptilian, there, there's a, there's a, there's a reptilian appeal to it, right? It's offensive. And, and I, let me be clear here. Like offensive can be like a positive It can, it can be a positive, right? In terms of like generating, um, generating regard. From, from a, from a buying public. And what's super interesting to me is that the type of product that sits within that same space in the United States, well, you know, um, Cybertruck is the, the, the, the exemplar, right? But, you know, it's also kind of the Silverado's and. And the escalates and are products that appeal to in many ways an anti woke, I'm putting that in inverted commas because it is a pejorative and I have a great deal of difficulty with that term, but it's, it's the term that's being bandied around. It appeals to a rabidly, those products appeal to. Arabidly anti woke, um,

Joe Simpson: 57:00

Kleontel.

Drew Smith: 57:01

clientele, customer base, right? Um, in large part. So, the idea to marry this product aesthetic with a campaign that's built around diversity and colour and Let's smash norms. Seems to be in direct contrast to, like, those two things seem to sit in opposition to one another. Like, if I was going to appeal to that market, like, I would have just, like, gone down, like, Gotham Dark. Isolate me from the world.

Joe Simpson: 57:49

But I, I think it's really interesting because this comes back to the meaning perspective. And I think they will do that as well. You know, it's not all going to be, um, I can't what they called it, the Miami pink. Um, uh, and the kind of bright blues

Drew Smith: 58:06

London blue, Paris gold.

Joe Simpson: 58:08

Paris gold. And I, it's been interesting to see on the web, like, you know, people doing renders of it murdered out and in, you know, gray, but, and there's a kind of, there's a slight Versace, you know, build your, you know, make yellow shirts so that people buy more black shirts kind of quality, I think, I think going on. So I'm not, I'm not quite so, I don't think I'm quite so in the same space as you on that being a problem. Um, But,

Drew Smith: 58:42

just think there's an, there's a really interesting tension there between the physical manifestation of the product and, and what it, what it, what it kind of evokes, right? In terms of form language, right? It, it's, it's brutal.

Joe Simpson: 59:04

it, it's, it's brutal, it's a middle finger, it's, it's kind of, it's, It's to me suggestive of something that's both offensive and defensive. It's a world where we want to, you know, it is a bit the Cybertruck playbook where it's like, yes, but I'll kind of like protect myself in my, you know, sort of nuclear war proof thing. And if I get into an accident, I'll be, I'll be sort of stronger than you.

Drew Smith: 59:31

not a product born of, like, love and connection. Like, let's put it that way, right?

Joe Simpson: 59:36

It's like the opposite of Rivian. Um, but, but, but, but my, I think that's a really interesting point, but just to go back to the one I was making, I think what I have a concern for them around is when you look at, and this is right now, and they're talking about product launches in 2026 and lives into the 2030s. So, and I'm just a bit concerned that the market. for electric hundred, hundred and twenty thousand pound, euro, even dollar vehicles. Well, in China, it's not there, if you're not a Chinese brand. right now. And we predicted a bloodbath when we did the China show a year ago of the Chinese brands. Well, actually, since we've last bloody recorded a show, it, there's a bloodbath happening and it's not the Chinese brands, it's the European and Japanese brands and American brands. It's like, you know, uh, so Volkswagen has gone on strike. Nissan's got 12 months to save itself. Tavares is out. Um, you know, uh, martial law in Korea last night. What, you know, what, what's going to happen tomorrow? Um, uh, so, uh, yeah. So I, I, I'm, I'm a little bit like, Oh, well, that's a, so you've not got potentially that many sales over there. And then in the U S you've got all this kind of stuff with Trump and just the sales, you know, I think you made the point. Oh, that was the other thing. Cybertruck, uh, you know, line workers that don't bother coming in and they've just got stock piled up, you know, all the people who wanted one, you know, have basically got one now, and even though the production ramp hasn't really gone up to whatever it was they were projecting a

Drew Smith: 1:01:21

They're already

Joe Simpson: 1:01:22

they now can't sell them. Um, so I'm a bit like, okay, so when my, my biggest sort of thing is, when I look at it, I'm like, how many have they got to sell? Um, it's on a bespoke platform and Even at 120 grand, I'm like, I'm not quite sure how the unit economics stack up.

Drew Smith: 1:01:51

Because at 120 grand, they'd have to sell what? 30? 40? Maybe. I don't know. How many thousand?

Joe Simpson: 1:02:01

it depends, it depends how much profit they want to make. It depends a lot on how much, how deep are Tata's pockets? How long do they want to put behind it? But, but I think that the point I'm trying to make is, on, on a bespoke platform, at those kind of prices, um, and with the kind of volume, let's be generous and say it's like 50, 000 units across a couple of products. The, the, the, which would be amazing. The supplier base is going to be tricky to work with because you're not going to be able to dual source. You're not going to get particularly like great prices. Don't forget all of the Bentleys. all of the Porsche, like the Taycan, the Bentley, the, the, the Audi, it's all the same stuff, a lot of the same stuff underneath. The, the, the Rolls Royce, it's got loads of, you know, the Spectre is a set is a lot of seven series or I seven under it. So you're doing it

Drew Smith: 1:03:02

economies of scale.

Joe Simpson: 1:03:04

scale. You're doing it on a bespoke platform. It doesn't share with the upcoming electric Range Rover apparently. And I'm like, well, that's a worry because then I'm sure there's profit in it, but how much money are you going to make? And then in markets where you're going to really struggle to sell. And then we haven't got to the elephant in the room, which is to really, I think, fly as a luxury brand these days. The thing they have to do is make an impeccable customer service experience, um, sort of ecosystem around it. And I'm. I'm really sorry, but I'm watching first hand as I see brand after brand struggle to do that. All the billions it takes to do it and do it well. Think of what Rivian promised and then have just been unable to deliver. Um, and you know, every brand going with like these, you know, Oh no, we're going to do direct to consumer sales. And then the dealers, particularly in the US go, all right, well done. Try. Um, you know, already seeing this with Scout and I'm just a

Drew Smith: 1:04:15

Cherry will be having that conversation with the dealers again.

Joe Simpson: 1:04:18

I'll see. Well, I I'm like, okay, great. I'm not, I'm not trying to knock it down. I'm not trying to knock it. I'm just saying that I'm in the industry. I know where things are at. I'm looking at the same sort of data and some of it, I can totally see what they're trying to do. And I can see what they see. And I'm probably, I think a bit more like, yeah, I think it could make sense than you are. But this whole thing of rebuilding the brand and the sort of the stores and the customer service, uh, network, and then the sales and the unit economics and the suppliers, it's, That whole sort of picture, when you stack it up, I'm like, oh fuck.

Drew Smith: 1:04:56

And, and, and

Joe Simpson: 1:04:58

I really hope that they will pull it off, but it's going to be hard.

Drew Smith: 1:05:02

you're doing it with an organization that is old. That has, has, has profoundly entrenched ways of thinking and behaving. Because that's the way we've always done it round here. Um, and I know this from first hand experience. Like I've,

Joe Simpson: 1:05:31

on top of, and on top of that, sorry, one, one of the reasons that JLR has stuttered before the others in China is because the reputation for quality and reliability was trash. And its reputation in the US is associated with. Unreliability. Now, somehow Range Rover, it's such a amazing product. It gets away with it. People put up with it. Um,

Drew Smith: 1:06:03

And, and, right, right?

Joe Simpson: 1:06:04

Jaguar is, is, is kind of, I mean, when we talk about what they didn't, Carry from the history The unfortunate elephant in the room and i'm not trying to put the boot in here Is that I think that you know, particularly for like a north american customer, they'll be like, okay. Have they sorted out the reliability? issues um Um,

Drew Smith: 1:06:30

really fascinating counterfactual to this whole, almost like throw the baby out with the bathwater. And, and maybe it was, maybe it's simply because Jaguar was left in the weeds for too long. Maybe it's because Jaguar tried to do a, like a Volvo naughty, but did like a German serious for, for too long, right? Um, and suffered from poor reliability and suffered from terrible after sales and suffered from indifferent sales, right? But It is fascinating to watch how the Range Rover brand has gone from strength to strength with Gentle evolution and it now appeals to a Wildly different customer base and And the old customer base.

Joe Simpson: 1:07:35

yeah,

Drew Smith: 1:07:35

Like,

Joe Simpson: 1:07:36

yeah

Drew Smith: 1:07:37

everybody's kind of come along for the ride with, with Range Rover. And, and yeah, look, I mean, maybe, look, this is probably what the determination was. Jaguar was just too far gone to be able to do that. And that's why we're seeing what we're seeing. Hmm. Hmm.

Joe Simpson: 1:07:57

about how You The world has obviously moved towards a, a cars or SUVs. Range Rover was in the right place and developed in the right way. Um, no small thanks to first BMW, then Ford, now then Tata. Um, and you know, credit to what Jerry has managed to do. Jaguar, I think got stuck in this space of being a brand. that was fundamentally associated with sports cars when people didn't want sports cars.

Drew Smith: 1:08:31

Hmm.

Joe Simpson: 1:08:32

Now, I mean, it's a sad thing for any enthusiast to sort of face up to, but even the sales, I mean, the best selling coupe, mustang, some of the Porsches, they're low tens of thousands of units. And if you think about it, all of the kind of, most of the coupes and cabriolets that we knew 20, 30 years ago, they've all gone away. Um, the SUV is the modern sports car, particularly in a place like China and in parts of America. And I am curious as to how they do with this, um, product typology that they're planning to bring, starting with this like four door GT, because, because if I'm going to be positive,

Drew Smith: 1:09:21

Yeah.

Joe Simpson: 1:09:22

we're probably at a point of peak SUV.

Drew Smith: 1:09:25

Sure.

Joe Simpson: 1:09:26

And at some point, we, we've talked about this before, we have to go, or customers will go somewhere else. Everyone will have an SUV. They're not great for efficiency when you get to kind of electric vehicles. They're kind of big and bulky and don't drive that well. Once you, once you get back into a lower car and remember. Um, and, Maybe I kind of want to move on and be open minded. And one of the things we know that people do when they, when they move to an electric vehicle is they, they tend to look around, they consider other brands to kind of what they previously did. They may have been loyal to BMW. They'll kind of, you know, start to consider things like Kia suddenly. And they can detach themselves from their sort of typological box of, I'm buying it. excised SUV. They are, it's, it becomes, it transfers into what are the benefits and what is the meaning of this vehicle? Can it still deliver the practicality or versatility I need? Yes, but it's lower down. Oh, okay. Well, yeah, I can get, I can, I get in and out of it. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm willing to consider it. Um, so maybe there's something in that.

Drew Smith: 1:10:43

I, I, it's just occurring to me, it's not the first time that Jaguar's done this in recent history. I, I, I mean it is the first time they've done it with a brand. Um, the last XJ. That was, that was kind of a two fingered salute. You know, fastback. Interesting pillar construction.

Joe Simpson: 1:11:07

It broke the convention of all the previous ones.

Drew Smith: 1:11:09

It did break the convention of all the previous ones and nobody bought them.

Joe Simpson: 1:11:12

It's actually quite a nice thing, I drove one a few times.

Drew Smith: 1:11:15

Really? I've, I've always wanted to have a go. Like,

Joe Simpson: 1:11:19

I don't know, it's quite good.

Drew Smith: 1:11:20

I mean, because it did kind of capture the gin and jag thing that I find appealing, but in a, in a, in a very different way. Um, Ah, mate, I don't, look, I don't know. Um, my The thing that I'm, I'm kind of leaning into as I get older is that I'm just a bit of an old fucking hippie. And There can I think for a lot of people, there is this, there is a tension or there's a polarity that exists between, like, what do we need to do to make an impact to make, and to make money. You And what do we need to do in order to be a force for good? However you choose to define that. Um, and I'm thinking here perhaps in terms of, of, of what do you need to be a force for good culturally, because car brands and cars are deeply, deeply cultural artifacts, right? They. say so much about who we are, where we're at and the type of world that we live in.

Joe Simpson: 1:12:22

Yeah.

Drew Smith: 1:12:22

And my sense is that there was room here for Jaguar to change itself, to change its place in the market, to change its customer base and do so in a way that didn't kick a hornet's nest a way that has been um, extremely kind of loud and intense and in violent and violent in the short term but also in a way that I fear set an unstable foundation For the brand moving forward. Oh,

Joe Simpson: 1:13:01

I I think they maybe had to shake the tree. I might not love about it, but I think they had to do what they at least briefed themselves to do. I think my sort of closing thought on it is that leading brands, I think, are part of culture and part of that is to do with setting and culture and gently, um, helping to, if you like, lead the conversation and the direction things are going. I think that what Some of this says to me is that Jaguar is trying to meet the culture that we're in head on and embrace it rather than leave it. So the culture of, um, the loudest, most extreme statement, voice, image gets the eyeballs. The culture of celebrity, the culture of influencer rather than the culture of quiet wealth. And I think that will jar with a lot of people. And I think maybe for people like us who are maybe over thinkers and deep thinkers on this stuff, that's a bit. It's a bit sad and I, I, it feels like a, as I said, as you said, it doesn't feel like a necessarily kind of happy and massively positivistic statement when you kind of decode the design and a lot of the meaning. Um, but it does. play with tensions. It does play with our culture right now of, like, uh, polarity, and black and white, and ones and zeros. And I think, if I were to finish on a positive note, that I wish them very well, because I, I think they maybe land in a space which is a little bit unique. It's not for me

Drew Smith: 1:15:16

don't say that!

Joe Simpson: 1:15:19

but it's not because it's, because I'm, because I need, because I, because if I decode the design, I'm, I'm still this, there's many unanswered questions about like, why does it need to be still so it feels somehow so brutal to the point of clumsiness. And why is it, why does the execution come off as slightly rushed? Like when they've had so long, but maybe that's a deliberate ploy to sort of enrage and then soften us up to a production car, which is actually better resolved. Um, you know, it's, let's take, for instance, the wheels are just too big. The wheels actually upset the proportion that it's, it proves out to me that you can have, you know, the, the car designer thing of massive bonnet, amazing portions and huge wheels, which you can have a bit too much of that because it's kind of. It upsets the thing, but.

Drew Smith: 1:16:11

naive as a consequence, right? It looks naive as a consequence.

Joe Simpson: 1:16:17

it's, maybe it works what they want to do, and maybe it speaks to the, to some of the people and puts them in a little bit of a kind of, of a unique space. And I think if that keeps Jaguar alive, that's, that's very interesting. And

Drew Smith: 1:16:35

I think, for

Joe Simpson: 1:16:36

I'd rather have them here than not.

Drew Smith: 1:16:39

For me, To, to view the world as black and white, to view the world as a set of polarities, and to play into the idea of a, of, of, of life being about polarities, I think is to fight against the fundamental nature of how life works, how the universe works. And, and they've done a fantastic job of making a big bang. I'm not sure they've done a fantastic job of setting themselves up to acknowledge the nature of How, how the world is in the long arc of, of history. Um, and, know, there's dignity in death, actually. There is dignity in knowing when to bow out.

Joe Simpson: 1:17:34

I think this, this leads us on to another topic about how many car brands does the world need.

Drew Smith: 1:17:41

Well, that can be a topic for the next show, Joe.

Joe Simpson: 1:17:43

next show, I mean, but in the previous show we did ask people to have opinions, and I feel it's got opinions, it's just maybe not opinions that we like, or you like. No, I, I have been, I hope, listeners have enjoyed this conversation and then it's maybe added something to other stuff you've read because there is obviously a tremendous amount of noise out there. Um, and just to Maybe just to reference and highlight. I mean, not everyone watches this on YouTube and stuff. We'll put some stuff in the show notes, but I think things we both, um, kicked around and references, there's a lot of research gone into this show, despite the rambling nature of the conversation. Um, Rory, Rory Sutherland's video on, uh, as a response to the, to the brand. Um, The two pieces I mentioned before by Adrian Clark that are on the Autopian, um, Jonathan Bell in wallpaper, uh, just today has a quite a, I think, quite a smart, um, an informed piece, um, and, uh, Christopher Bott, Autodidact, if you go on Autodidact, he has a sort of a fairly short but a quite erudite piece, I think, about, um, Sort of where he's coming from on Jaguar as a brand and what the concept manages to do.

Drew Smith: 1:19:03

I think

Joe Simpson: 1:19:03

Others, do you

Drew Smith: 1:19:04

yeah, there's, there was also, um, the Chris Harrison Friends podcast, which is not something that I would normally listen to. Um, but it was recommended to me by, um, Aidan, one of our listeners, and it was interesting hearing, um, from a group of later, middle aged men.

Joe Simpson: 1:19:28

Some of whom own several

Drew Smith: 1:19:29

Some of whom own several Jaguars, but also who, uh, some of whom are kind of deeply sort of aware of, of, of brand and product and how stuff kind of manifests in the market sort of discuss this topic. I thought that was kind of super interesting as

Joe Simpson: 1:19:48

I'm related to that. Harry's garage video was quite, was good as well. And he, I mean, he used to work at Jaguar.

Drew Smith: 1:19:54

Um, so yeah, thanks everyone. we clearly love this stuff, right? And for the folk who are working at Jaguar and have been involved in this, Like, props to you, absolutely, for bringing this into the world. If the intent was to generate conversation, I think you've done an incredible job.

Joe Simpson: 1:20:20

Right.

Drew Smith: 1:20:20

And I think what Jo and I are trying to do here is to just try and understand what it all means. Because that's That's the gap that has been left unfilled so far. Um, this has been, uh, looking out the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. If you liked the show, might be a big ask. Um, if you liked the show, uh, please go ahead and share it with some friends. introduce them to a couple of different points of view. Um, go ahead and give it a review. Uh, leave us a comment on YouTube. Give us a five star if you like on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. Um, we'll be back in a couple of weeks probably with another conversation. Scintillating it will be, I'm sure. Uh, this is Drew Smith.

Joe Simpson: 1:21:19

And Joe Simpson.

Drew Smith: 1:21:21

This has been Looking Out The Podcast. Thank you so much for listening. You asked

Joe Simpson: 1:21:25

I can't let you hit record yet. Oh, fuck your recording.

Drew Smith: 1:21:28

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Joe. Face full of mince pie, huh? Gettin in the festive spirit?

Joe Simpson: 1:21:38

I mean, it's December now. I'm not in the UK, but I found mince pies.