Joe Simpson: 0:00

Jeremy Clarkson once wrote this article where I remember him describing like it, I can't remember what car he was talking about, but he's like, he described it as being like a car that you bought a bit like a carpet. It's just like, how much, how much mi How much meters worth of car do I want? Oh, it's this much. There you go. Generic car. And I was like, there was some stuff that was very much like that. And you were like, I don't know. So you, you ended up inventing this kind of rather elaborate in to kind of, you know, give the reader some interesting hook to actually read about said boring crossover mobile.

Drew Smith: 0:33

I'm somebody that may sound like Drew Smith,

Joe Simpson: 0:37

And I'm somebody that may sound like Joe Simpson.

Drew Smith: 0:40

And you are listening to something that was once upon a time known as Looking Out the Podcast. The podcast in which we connect the dots across mobility, design, and culture.

Joe Simpson: 0:54

Coming up on today's show, we're going to have a chat about the latest Tesla, uh, And talk about why we've been missing in action for such a long time. Buckle up readers, it's gonna be a fun one. No, not readers, listeners! Jesus Christ, sorry. Oh, fuck that. Oh,

Drew Smith: 1:22

What the fuck happened today, Joe?

Joe Simpson: 1:28

I don't want to talk about that

Drew Smith: 1:30

Oh, come on, come on.

Joe Simpson: 1:37

I don't know

Drew Smith: 1:40

Cat got your tongue or illegal and compliance?

Joe Simpson: 1:46

I didn't want to come and and record a podcast When we've not recorded for a couple of months and then just be like, let's go hate on Tesla.

Drew Smith: 2:02

Oh, I thought it

Joe Simpson: 2:03

I was like,

Drew Smith: 2:04

for a

Joe Simpson: 2:05

I mean, what do we do best? Wind people up about EVs, uh, tend to get ourselves into trouble talking about other brands, design language and hate on Tesla.

Drew Smith: 2:19

I mean, there's a re, honestly, there's a reason I haven't had a lot to say. Over the past few months, because, okay, like, let, let's be honest, right? And, and I know I'm not alone in this because Jason Kemedia and, uh, Derek Darrell, double barrel, Tam Scott recently recorded an episode of the commotion show where Jason was both recounting his experience of. Uh, what he has absolutely clarified beyond a shadow of a doubt was not a review of the Cybertruck, right? And just the unbelievable amount of politicized hate he.

Joe Simpson: 3:09

God. Yeah,

Drew Smith: 3:10

Received as a consequence of that and we, we, we got that too. Okay. Like, I mean, we're nowhere near on the level of, of, of, of Jason Kameisa, of course, and yet, if you look through the comment section of,

Joe Simpson: 3:24

stopped reading it.

Drew Smith: 3:26

of the videos that we've done on things like Cybertruck and, and, and Tesla and FSA of stuff in the past, I can see where he's coming from, but he also said that he What was he, what was he reviewing? Was it

Joe Simpson: 3:41

Uh,

Drew Smith: 3:42

toenail?

Joe Simpson: 3:43

an alpha toenail, alpha tona,

Drew Smith: 3:47

Yeah, it was the toenail. Yeah, my dad used to call Fiat Chromas. I think Fiat sold about four of them in Australia. But whenever he saw them, he'd call it a Fiat Coma. And the Fiat Regatta in our family was known as the Fiat Regretta. the alpha toenail is, um, following a long history

Joe Simpson: 4:08

following in in good Fus footsteps. Yeah, yeah,

Drew Smith: 4:10

But he was saying, look, like, I just didn't know what to say.

Joe Simpson: 4:16

yeah.

Drew Smith: 4:18

the product.

Joe Simpson: 4:21

When I was reviewing cars back in the day, there were, it was really nice to get cars for a week and. I think there's a problem with auto journalism. I mean, it's really nice to get cars for a week and they're full of fuel. In fact, I have a working theory that one reason a lot of auto journalists hate EVs is because they turn up at their houses and they're not full. They've not got a free full tank of fuel for a week. Um, but that's another topic and podcast altogether. Um, but sometimes some stuff would turn up and, you know, I was just like, I don't know what to write. I have nothing to say. It's, it's like, Jeremy Clarkson once wrote this article where I remember him describing like it, I can't remember what car he was talking about, but he's like, he described it as being like a car that you bought a bit like a carpet. It's just like, how much, how much mi How much meters worth of car do I want? Oh, it's this much. There you go. Generic car. And I was like, there was some stuff that was very much like that. And you were like, I don't know. So you, you ended up inventing this kind of rather elaborate in to kind of, you know, give the reader some interesting hook to actually read about said boring crossover mobile. So I understand where Jason was coming from.

Drew Smith: 5:38

the only car, is it the only car? The only press car I ever received was a Lexus RX 350. And

Joe Simpson: 5:51

when we were living in London,

Drew Smith: 5:52

if we were

Joe Simpson: 5:53

in it.

Drew Smith: 5:55

I know. And it turned up and I was like, what am I going to say about a Lexus?

Joe Simpson: 6:04

Well, I remember what you said. You described the leather on the door and the gear shifter as being like the skin on the back of granny's hand. Ha!

Drew Smith: 6:19

and gentlemen, it may not surprise you to learn that I have never again received a press car. But, but, but, but, but, I did go and do some fun stuff with that car, right? I, I, I drove to Portishead because I love Portishead. Uh, I wanted to see The town where the band was named, you know, so I could, like, I could write as, yeah, for non, for non Potter's

Joe Simpson: 6:46

British watch listeners. Yeah, small place just outside Bristol. Nice spot. Home of said band of same name.

Drew Smith: 6:55

Great music to do MDMA

Joe Simpson: 6:57

here.

Drew Smith: 6:58

apparently. And also became the soundtrack to middle class dinner parties in the 90s. Um, all, all of that aside,

Joe Simpson: 7:08

Coldplay was a thing.

Drew Smith: 7:10

Jesus Christ.

Joe Simpson: 7:14

Portishead were a lot better than Coldplay.

Drew Smith: 7:16

Yeah, I mean that, please don't tar Porter's head with that brush. Um, but you know, you can't turn every review into an obscure travel log of like, you know, coastline outside of Bristol. Um, so anyway, like to get, to get, to get back to the point. Um, Jason was basically saying like, I've kind of. I've kind of given up, like I'm going to try one or two more things and then I think I might be done with it. Um, and, and the reason we haven't been recording is because I haven't wanted to record because I felt like I haven't really had anything new and valuable to talk about. and, you know, in, in full transparency, this has coincided with, you know, a period of depression that I've been going through. Like I, I I've stopped writing, didn't want to record the podcast. I was doing a column for car design news, just stop that. And I'm like, If I haven't got positive stuff to talk about, if I haven't got interesting, exciting

Joe Simpson: 8:47

Yeah, things,

Drew Smith: 8:49

things to kind of get my teeth stuck into, I don't want to write about carpet. Like,

Joe Simpson: 8:59

It has been quite a, um, is that unfair? I was going to say it has been quite a slow period. Um, you described it in a really, really interesting way and I hope you don't mind me sharing this with people, but you described it in, well hang on, we're in October and, uh, when did we have this conversation? August, where you said I feel like I've been giving the industry by which you mean broadly, the auto industry. I suppose we could expand it to mean mobility. A lot of space. In my head, it's been taking up room a bit like, you know, someone that's taking up a large proportion of your house, but it hasn't been paying for it

Drew Smith: 9:48

it's been living rent free. This industry has been living rent free in my head for professionally for nigh on 20 years at this point. And it's given vanishingly little back to me.

Joe Simpson: 10:06

Mm.

Drew Smith: 10:08

In

Joe Simpson: 10:08

And I think this,

Drew Smith: 10:11

I was just going to say, in terms of reasons to be hopeful.

Joe Simpson: 10:19

mm. And I think, um, I think for those of us in the industry, there is a kind of, uh, well, no, not definitely not for everybody, probably for a minority of people. I'm actually talking about a sample size of about six. Um, so take this with a pinch of salt. But I do harbor this belief that a lot of people are in it because they think they're, I'm talking about designers, they have skills, which can make the world a better place by baking things and products, which improve people's lives and improve our visual environment and make your experience nicer. And maybe don't fuck up the world quite as badly as we have been doing. And. I think a lot of people, me included, go through waves or periods, or maybe you get to a particular period in your career where you go, Am I, um, I'm going to use a coarse term. Am I inside the tent pissing out or am I outside it trying to piss in? And, um, I think for those of us in the industry, you hope and believe that you're trying, you're, you know, you're making this sort of everything move in a more positive direction, but you'll have days where you're like, Is this really worth it? Is this really what I'm doing? Could my, could my skill set be better applied elsewhere and have a bigger impact? And I don't mean from sort of one brand to another. I mean, just in terms of if you're of the belief that you want to try and make the world a better place, or you want to try and make nicer products for people, even it, you know, is then being. Inside a car company, design department, the best place to do it. I think that's been perhaps the appeal of a lot of the startups that you've actually had the ability to start from a clean sheet of paper and really affect it and, and have impact, which maybe brings

Drew Smith: 12:21

about Tesla?

Joe Simpson: 12:22

Tesla.

Drew Smith: 12:25

Um, there was, there was a thread that I wanted to pick up on there. Okay. Yes, there is a thread. Right. So I, I, for people who perhaps aren't aware when I left Europe in price, what was it? 2023, April of 2023. Right. I came back to Australia with the intention of establishing an independent design strategy practice. I like to work in the automotive industry, studio, fro. I've been working kind of on and off independently for many years. It's how Joe and I originally met actually was working together on stuff. And I came back to Australia and fairly quickly started to. realize the uphill struggle that it was going to be to try and continue to consult meaningfully to the automotive industry from a country that has precisely zero automotive industry. Um, And, you know, like I'm getting older, not old, I'm 42 and the prospect of jumping on planes to service clients in China or to go to the West coast or to fly to Europe, that all started to factor into things as well. And I've spent an awful lot of time on planes in my career. It's not something I really want to do for work anymore. And I just started going, actually, you know what? Um,

Joe Simpson: 13:54

Maybe I'll do something

Drew Smith: 13:57

right. And then, um, Um, a chap that I've been working on, on the next billion cars, uh, the other podcasts that I do, um, since 2018 wrote a book about generative artificial intelligence last year. And he sat me down for breakfast one morning, uh, this is Mark Pesci, and he said, What else should I do with this book? And being the good little management consultant, I gave him a bunch of ideas about how he could, you know, kind of monetize all of the intellectual property that had gone into this book beyond just book sales. And one of those ideas was to develop a consultancy, uh, offer around it. Because I, uh, I am still deeply skeptical. Uh, not cynical for Sam Livingston out there. I'm not cynical. I'm skeptical, uh, about the value of generative AI as it is very commonly spoken about in the here and now. Right. And remember, I used to work for. The world's largest technology consulting firm. So I know how these companies live off the hype cycles around the introduction of these new technologies. And I said to Mark, look, there's going to be space for somebody to calm the farm, to talk sense to executives. And the whole reason I'm telling you this story is because Mark came back to me three months after that conversation and said, Drew, you and I are going to start a consulting firm about artificial intelligence. And I was like, I'm sorry, what?

Joe Simpson: 15:31

And he was like, it was your idea. Remember?

Drew Smith: 15:34

But studio for, I wasn't going anywhere, you know, I was picking up little bits of work here and there and I needed to earn some money and I thought, you know what, why not? I really like Mark. Um, there's room here for me to kind of express my skepticism and it'll be really interesting to see what the clients are like, because I think, you know, that over the years, the engagements that I've had with the automotive industry were. I try to bring an outside perspective, perhaps a perspective that is divorced from whatever hype is overtaking leadership teams on a given day or week or month or year, has very often fallen on deaf ears. And what I've found with the clients that I now work with is a bunch of senior leaders who are humble, who are curious, who are going, Oh shit. And not battening down the hatches and running away from the challenge, but going, can you help us lean into this?

Joe Simpson: 16:38

You maybe don't want to talk about your clients, but is what sectors and, um, industries are you predominantly talking about? Not

Drew Smith: 16:47

So, so yeah, no, no, because of course at CES we had Volkswagen integrating chat GPT into their ID cars to laughably bad effect because they are the kind of company that wouldn't listen to the type of advice that Mark and I give. Um, so we have clients in the marketing services space. Uh, we have financial services organizations, we have, uh, local government. Uh, we have utilities, you know, and, and, and I was just going to say, like, we're engaging kind of with C suite people, right? C suite and one level below who are kind of facing into a whole bunch of hype driven fear around what's going to happen to their organizations. And I mentioned this because it's nice to talk to leaders within organizations. That are leaning into the challenges and looking for interesting solutions rather than Kind of like fuck. How do we keep the old thing going for as long as possible?

Joe Simpson: 17:57

Yeah. I was going to say, I don't know, I need to be careful how I sort of say this, but. I guess if we parallel, like, what happens in automotive, I think what you're getting at, to a certain extent, is a couple of things, and I'm not going to focus my hate on the car companies, but does it suffice to say that I think what you're saying is, the priority is how do we keep the factories running and, you know, the machine. Well oiled that that's prior number one But then what's happened in the auto industry and for anybody listening who's not in the auto industry of which maybe there's a few Why is everything why is everything seems the same so similar? Well, it's kind of you know, it's geared in a certain way instead of in a certain way partly industrially You know the industrial reality of it. But the other thing is that There is a safety net for people in the C suite in automotive firms in everybody looks at the same data, everybody uses JD Power, everybody uses Standard Poor's,

Drew Smith: 19:01

Everybody hires mckinsey

Joe Simpson: 19:03

and then I was going to say, and then at the C suite level, everybody hires McKinsey or BCG. Or Accenture. And then if we want to do some transformation or some kind of, uh, you know, sort of customer level stuff, we might hire IDEO. And, and what happens is I, I think, you know, this better than me, but probably the same stuff gets sort of churned around and everybody's comfortable knowing that everybody else's C suite is probably getting the same management document on AI or whatever from McKinsey. So, so there's a kind of theory

Drew Smith: 19:41

to write those documents joe

Joe Simpson: 19:44

But, but, but my point is, I think the logic is, well, even if they're wrong, at least everyone's going to get the wrong stuff. So we're all going to do wrong together. So we're not going to end up too far out of whack with everybody else in the industry, which is how, when people say, how come it can't innovate? Well, you kind of see the, the big picture there. Yeah,

Drew Smith: 20:07

my first boss in london, uh, jeremy brown. I will never ever forget him saying this to me um And I think, I think he'd cribbed it from somebody somewhere else. But, uh, you know, the saying used to be, nobody gets fired for hiring IBM. And we were a small, uh, ethnographically informed product and service innovation consultancy. And, and he would say, nobody gets fired for hiring IDO, right? Uh, they are the safe pair of hands, but they won't give you anything different. And I think that's what I staked my claim around trying to do. Uh, is to,

Joe Simpson: 20:44

And I would. Sorry, add that where to give my own company credit, I have been involved in projects where it's not been the obvious that has been hired and they have been interesting and surprise, small consultancies, innovative consultancies who have a different model and stuff. Yes, it can feel scary at first, but they tend to challenge or change your way of thinking and looking at the world. And particularly when you engage with people, customers. Um, and that tends to be the thing that actually really. Uh, then drives change or can sort of spread a different idea through an organization, which is really powerful.

Drew Smith: 21:23

And, and, and so within, within that vein, I think it's fascinating to look at the arc of an organization like Ford, right? And, I don't know if Ryan McManus listens to this, but it would be interesting to get his point of view on it because obviously Ford famously just hoovered up work from IDO, uh,

Joe Simpson: 21:46

I mean, even when I was working, so sorry to interject, I started working for an agency who was working for Ford in, oh God, 2000 and was it 2008? Eight. It was, yeah, it was a financial crisis because Ford just, Ford had just literally mortgaged the house and managed not to go into Chapter 11 in the same way that Chrysler and GM

Drew Smith: 22:13

Yeah. It was when you and I started

Joe Simpson: 22:14

did some really, Yeah. Um,

Drew Smith: 22:17

on Ford stuff.

Joe Simpson: 22:18

2000, 2008, 2009, and what we were working for a very small agency, but they had hired even at that point, they, I don't know what the retainer was, but they had IDEO doing user research. IDEO had led them to, uh, the Ford fusion hybrid. I remember where one side of the, um, the, the, uh, information, the driver information cluster. Um, uh, it, um, like the leaves grew,

Drew Smith: 22:50

yeah, exactly.

Joe Simpson: 22:51

how, uh, how, how kind of well you were driving, how efficiently you were driving. That was an idea, uh, sort of innovation.

Drew Smith: 22:58

And so, so Ford then decided, and this is so often the arc when organizations latch onto a new problem, so let's call it a new problem solving methodology. Quite often, well, they typically start working with outside resources to, to, to, to start playing with this stuff. And then over the course of time, if they find that this new problem solving methodology is valuable, they then start to develop the in house capability. And of course that gave rise to DFORD. And I think

Joe Simpson: 23:26

D

Drew Smith: 23:27

for a long time, DFORD for people like you and I was the standard bearer. For how to develop human centered design and innovation capabilities within, um, a car company, right?

Joe Simpson: 23:44

Yeah.

Drew Smith: 23:45

And all blew up last year, like they

Joe Simpson: 23:51

right.

Drew Smith: 23:51

fired every single person pretty much associated with D Ford.

Joe Simpson: 23:58

I think they bought quite a few, uh, some. In house. And it was obvious that there was maybe a issue with how the way a car company works and generally runs and, you know, design and engineering departments, and then having a sort of, if you like, um, a junked semi out of house independent, but in house consulting innovation agency. Um, and how you used that to good effect, how you brought ideas across, how you, um, I don't know, manage things like process and ownership of ideas and, and, and, you know, the kind of, you brought in the insights that the, the default had into, uh, you know, car programs. Yeah.

Drew Smith: 24:59

from having spoken to people, numerous people that worked within DFOR that there were, um, there were significant challenges around like over researching stuff. For example, it's like, okay, like we, we know about this. Like we all have an intuitive feel for what's right. Like we don't need to go and run some massive multi market ethnographic research program to be Prove a point that we know has been proven many times before. Um, so there were like operational challenges around it, but I think in terms of being able to point at companies other than perhaps ones like the one that you work for, uh, and being able to go, Oh, there are other organizations out there that actually get this. And understand the importance of building porous organizations and allowing for kind of experimentation and new ways of looking at the world. It's like, oh, gosh. Feels, feels a bit dark. Um, Um, And, and, and, and I guess we w we were going to circle back around to Tesla. Right. And, and look, I think all of the stuff around FSD and autonomy and robotaxis and the substance of, um, whether that will ever actually work. not my domain. I think it's been proven by many other people that the path to full autonomy, the way Tesla is choosing to pursue it is Buncombe, but I'm not the expert on that, right? I,

Joe Simpson: 26:40

iffy at

Drew Smith: 26:41

I'm, I'm not here to comment on that, but thinking about. Hmm. If I think about what my purpose is. You know, I was having a conversation with somebody the other day, it's about brokering more humane relationships between humans and technology

Joe Simpson: 26:59

Yeah.

Drew Smith: 27:00

and, and, and understanding the intersection of, of, of culture design business and technology, um, sort of more broadly. And what I noticed with, um, What was it? Cyber cab and robo van. He was pronouncing robo van in the weirdest way. I can't anyway, was, was the, the, the total absence of humanity. Right? So if, if cyber cab is meant to be a general purpose shared use cab taxi, what do you do if you've got a wheelchair? What do you do if you've got crutches? What do you do if you've got a gammy hip? This thing has the h point of a sports car, and by h point for, it's an industry term, it's like how far off the ground is your hip, is your hip joint, right? And, and, and, and this, this little thing, you scooch down into it like a sports car. So, It's great for somebody with full mobility, still not great. If you've got full mobility and you're carrying a bunch of heavy stuff. Uh, and, and, and I commented on that on, I don't know, one of the social networks. And then I saw the, the robo van coming in and I thought, Oh God, I've, I've, I've, I've. I've shot my load too soon. This is going to be, yeah, this is, this is going to be amazing from like a, an accessibility standpoint. Listener, it is not right. I did manage to find one press image, which shows a single wheelchair user who would be, you know, Kind of wedged into the middle of the, of the van with a, with a wheelchair ramp.

Joe Simpson: 29:00

A bit like a bus, I guess.

Drew Smith: 29:03

yeah,

Joe Simpson: 29:05

Yeah, it's not very ideal. And that you have some doors that open and then a ramp has to come out and then you get in and you sort of sit in this kind of grey zone in between the seats.

Drew Smith: 29:15

yes, um, fine. But it's like one wheelchair

Joe Simpson: 29:22

No, I'm not trying to articulate it's good. I'm just

Drew Smith: 29:25

no, no,

Joe Simpson: 29:25

trying to describe.

Drew Smith: 29:26

Sure. Ah, right. Okay. Sorry. I thought you were, I was getting my backup Joe.

Joe Simpson: 29:31

No, no.

Drew Smith: 29:33

but again, you know, this is, these are, these are products conceptually. I mean, Elon's been talking about this, what, since 2016. So as an idea, having a fleet of robo taxis has been knocking around for, I'm not very good at math, for eight years. the products that were shown today showed no. accommodations beyond maybe a ramp and some space for people with mobility challenges, like no handholds, no grips, know, no evidence of straps to hold stuff down. And you'd think if you're going to the effort of like hiring the back lot at a movie studio, surely you'd want to be able to demonstrate, to demonstrate how is this stuff actually going to And I've given crap to companies like Renault. Many years ago for the, what was it called?

Joe Simpson: 30:34

Easy. I want to say it's an easy go, but I might be the wrong one. Yeah.

Drew Smith: 30:42

Right? Which was, which was a static model, but was a hundred times better thought through and resolved

Joe Simpson: 30:51

Yeah.

Drew Smith: 30:52

than what Tesla showed

Joe Simpson: 30:53

We have a video somewhere of us in it, at Geneva, I think. Maybe you weren't

Drew Smith: 30:57

was still, it was still pretty, it was still pretty bad, but, but at least they kind of thought about tethering and holding on to stuff and what you

Joe Simpson: 31:08

How it interacted with the built environment

Drew Smith: 31:10

Got into and out of and how it works with the built environment and all that kind of thing.

Joe Simpson: 31:14

I think my reflection, and I'm not going to go particularly deep on this because I, I'm almost like, I genuinely don't know whether it's worth the airtime, um, when I hear you speak and when I was looking at the images, my, my reflection sort of sat around, There's somewhere that's always a, an interesting question for, um, uh, let's call it like design in general. And, and this is not just about design at all, but how you balance, balance in inverted commas, that sort of futuristic visionary quality. Where it's like, Oh, it has to look like something from the future because self driving vehicles are the future. So it has to map to a mental model that we have created in our minds, that's actually often based on film. So if you think of a vehicle from the future, it's things like vehicles from RoboCab or Minority Report or those kinds of,

Drew Smith: 32:24

Yes, but they were, they are better resolved, they are better resolved than products that are supposedly two to three years away from production. Like I've seen the Lexuses from Minority Report up close and I'm like, holy crap,

Joe Simpson: 32:41

a job on this.

Drew Smith: 32:42

they've done a really good job on this. So I,

Joe Simpson: 32:44

it would be interesting to get someone like, yeah, it would be interesting to get someone like Daniel Simon's view on this. You know, he was responsible for the vehicles in Tron and, uh, worked for a long time with the kind of the movie, um, studios in, in Hollywood as a kind of vehicle design consultant. Um, and I think he's really interesting in kind of like that space and how you project the future, but then balanced against the actual reality. The usability of these things. And I think maybe in some of the Elon's mind, it's just like, I don't know if he's really interested in the kind of, you know, he's only interested in people that sort of fit in his sort of world domain of how people use

Drew Smith: 33:23

Exactly, like cis, cis white males, high, high as kites on ketamine. Um, the reason I think it's important to discuss this is because Tesla has defined so much of the narrative of the mainstream automotive industry for a very long time now.

Joe Simpson: 33:43

Yeah.

Drew Smith: 33:44

you and I have lived through eras where organizations that we've either worked for or consulted to have been completely dumbstruck, um, and in a flat panic by what Tesla is doing. And I think,

Joe Simpson: 34:00

To that point, the, the mod, the, I would posit the Model S is the most important vehicle of the 21st century so far.

Drew Smith: 34:10

Right.

Joe Simpson: 34:10

The Model 3 is probably, the Model 3 is probably the second most important. And it's still a template that many other brands you can see are obviously following and reacting to. And it's what, you know, now six years old already. Um, so we're not trying to deny at all the impact they've had. It's been enormous. And I think your point is like, they have such colossal influence. Um, you know, Uh, parry back to the conversation we had about the Cybertruck, that, I think that's why some of our, um, perspectives, objections, we feel are kind of important to raise up because people will sort of react. Copy, follow, be influenced by it without thinking particularly deeply. But that's then an interesting conversation where I'm, I'm curious about the ongoing impact of Tesla. I still think this relates more to how the company's positioned in the future in its stock market share price. Um, because I personally think a Model 2 is much more interesting and I'm waiting to see if that still happens. Ellen sort of said it won't, I think it might, and I think that's still the way more interesting and in the next probably 10 years, potentially more impactful vehicle.

Drew Smith: 35:31

I did spend some time just looking at the, the cyber cab and thinking, I want, I wonder if you could actually engineer this, like if, if, if you engineered it for production and I actually have a whole bunch of questions around whether the cyber cab as shown today could actually be Thanks a register, a production

Joe Simpson: 35:58

purchasable vehicle.

Drew Smith: 36:00

Especially at the 30, 000 or sub 30, 000 mark. Um, the, I think the point that I wanted to get to was from here on out, I think it's been, It's been easy to sort of both sides Tesla for, for a little while and be like, Oh yeah. Okay. Like the whole FSD thing. It's kind of not cool. Um, but model S model three. Wow. Isn't that amazing. And then you look at, at, at Cybertruck and you know, we had conversations about 48 fold architectures and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They are not a serious company. Then they're not as, I don't, I don't believe on the strength of today that they are a serious car making company. I'm happy to change my mind if model two comes along

Joe Simpson: 36:53

But do you think that's because what's happening now is this is a pivot towards, again, the future? Um, Which is focused on the idea of AI and robots. that the potentially transformative change that has on society, i. e. carmaking and the way that they've set things up with model S model three, that was just like a realistically a move of the needle. It was still in the realm of the kind of carmaking as we know it. This or the play, if it's to be believed, it is different. It's about the impact that robotics and artificial intelligence and kind of have on the future of society.

Drew Smith: 37:30

and, and to believe it, I need to see that those products are for everyone, that, that the way those products are designed and executed match the hype. That Elon pushes, which is this will change the world. This will change our cities. I mean, the other thing that I found absolutely fascinating was showing all of the, um, the aerial shots of the sports grounds and the parking lots in the United States.

Joe Simpson: 37:57

Mm.

Drew Smith: 37:58

And in the, in the launch video or in the launch presentation, Elon was talking about, you know, it'll be amazing. We can get rid of all of these parking lots. And what are they going to put in the parking lot parks. The, the problem that certainly North American cities have is typically not primarily a lack of parkland. It's a lack of density,

Joe Simpson: 38:22

Mm.

Drew Smith: 38:23

So if you were really,

Joe Simpson: 38:26

and

Drew Smith: 38:26

if you were really thinking about how you were going to intelligently reuse all of the parking space from around one of North America's many sort of football or baseball stadiums, it would be actually, why don't we create like walkable, bikeable, human scaled neighborhoods where guess what? We don't actually need cars.

Joe Simpson: 38:51

I also think there's another part which has been talked about to death, which is, yeah, you take away all the parking and the vehicles move out and then they're doing swarming, circling around the city when they're not in use. And yes, I get that the idea is because the utilization factor is so much higher, you don't need as many vehicles, but how does that actually work in principle? How do you not just move the problem from being a parking problem to being a kind of congestion problem? Um, Yeah.

Drew Smith: 39:18

and then how do you factor in the service layer? Because, you know, as, as Chris Bangle said on a podcast that I recorded with him many moons ago, this is all just plumbing. Um, you know, running, running a service is, is plumbing. It's like, how do you get. Nourishment in and how do you get shit out? And I, it was interesting that, that, that Tesla actually nodded to servicing with a video of what looked like a buffing pad mounted on a screwdriver mounted on something that was supposed to be a robotic arm coming in and polishing the screen. In the center of the RoboCab and, like, something that looked maybe like a robot vacuum cleaner arm, like, sucking up candy in the

Joe Simpson: 40:15

least I thought about it.

Drew Smith: 40:17

EIGHT YEARS. You've had eight years. Anyway, this is why I haven't been recording podcasts, Joe.

Joe Simpson: 40:34

it's the Paris Motor Show next week.

Drew Smith: 40:38

Ah, yes. We are back people. We are back.

Joe Simpson: 40:46

I am there for precisely one day before I get on a plane to America.

Drew Smith: 40:52

I'm going to have to catch you at a bistro somewhere. Look, ladies and gentlemen, this has been a very special. And very fun episode of looking at the podcast. I honestly cannot tell you when the next one will be, but it may be after Paris. Um,

Joe Simpson: 41:13

Drew feels about the world, cars, the auto industry.

Drew Smith: 41:18

if, if you've stuck with us in the break and if you've made it this far, thank you so much. Um. We do, I, I mean, I really appreciate the fact that Joe and I have had this platform for as long as we had. And it's lovely to know that you're out there and listening to us and sometimes agreeing with us, sometimes violently disagreeing with us. Um, so stay tuned if you like this, share it with some friends, might give them some pause for thought. About what they're, what they're doing and what they could be doing. Um, looking at the podcast was not written, but definitely presented by Drew Smith.

Joe Simpson: 41:53

And Joe Simpson.

Drew Smith: 41:56

This is Drew Smith. Thank you so much for listening.