Drew Smith: 0:00

If we think about the three exhibitions that you've just described, Audi, Porsche, and Kia, right? If you think about the levels of confidence that each of those three brands are currently displaying in terms of their design strategy as manifested in product, I think it's really sort of a fascinating reflection that Audi is like desperately hanging on the, onto the car. Porsche is like, shit, we'd better put one of our greats in here just to kind of keep the link and Kia's like, actually, you know what? We're just, we're just gonna go, we're gonna go full abstract.

Joe Simpson: 0:43

Yeah. And then, and then park four EV9s outside to shuttle people around, which is the only statement you need. Because to be honest, on the streets of Milan, an EV9 in that blue or in black makes quite a big statement. I mean, yeah, it looks really good. I'm Joe Simpson, design strategist at an automotive OEM in Europe, whose views I do not, and have never represented on this show.

Drew Smith: 1:12

And I'm Drew Smith, Independent Design Strategist at StudioPhro*. And of course, all of these views are my own.

Joe Simpson: 1:20

And welcome to Looking Out the Podcast, in which we connect the dots across mobility, design, and culture.

Drew Smith: 1:28

And coming up in this episode 19 of looking out the podcast- I still can't quite believe we've made it this far uh, we are going to be taking a look at two of the most significant events on the automotive design circuit. In the past couple of weeks, we've had, uh, the Salone del Mobile in Milan, which is no longer called the Salone del Mobile. What is it called now, Joe?

Joe Simpson: 1:57

It's now called Milan Design Week. Heh heh heh.

Drew Smith: 2:04

uh, the Beijing Auto Show. And it's fair to say that both of these events for very different reasons, have become sort of linchpins of the global automotive design circuit. Um, but before we dive into that, Joe, we have a little bit of audience participation, and it comes as a result of a question from Andrew Clews of The Motoring Podcast, who is a very. Joe,

Joe Simpson: 2:37

I feel like readers and listeners might think he's our only listener. He's the only one who ever writes in. Thank you, Andrew. So, um, Andrew asked us about, um, basically in reference to our last show about EVs, about the idea of, uh, plugging hybrids and hybrids and sort of what role they played. Andrew, I think you had some recent experience, uh, in Melbourne.

Drew Smith: 3:07

I

Joe Simpson: 3:07

Do you want to tell us more about that?

Drew Smith: 3:09

Yeah, so I, uh, was recently in Melbourne for a friend's 60th birthday party and much to my disappointment when I turned up to the Sixt counter at Melbourne Tullamarine Airport, they handed me the keys to a Toyota Corolla Hybrid. Now, I am unbelievably

Joe Simpson: 3:29

You know, your book, your book six. So you can hope you get, I don't know, something German. Don't you? So

Drew Smith: 3:35

I don't know,

Joe Simpson: 3:35

but

Drew Smith: 3:36

a Five Series. Actually, there was, there was supposed to be an upsell deal when I, when I, before I logged in, right? This tells you something about my status with Sixt. Before I logged in for 95 Australian dollars a day, they were offering me a Peugeot 508. Which I, I'm fairly certain that Sixt owns the only Peugeot 508s in Australia. However, after I logged in and they had my membership details, it was a Toyota Corolla Hybrid. Now, when I got to the car park, I, uh, unlocked the car. I hopped in, I pressed the start button and nothing.

Joe Simpson: 4:21

happened.

Drew Smith: 4:22

I was just like, what? The car was filthy, so the car was not clean when I got in, so I was already in a bit of a mood. It also looked like it, it had been through a, you know, like some derby it was just so bashed up. So I got out of the car, all indignant, and I tried to find the Sixt chap. Sixth chap, where are you? This car is not working. It's telling me something about checking the rear seats. There's no engine. It's not the guy was like, uh, sir, it's a hybrid. Um, you won't hear any noise.

Joe Simpson: 5:00

Drew How long have you worked in the auto industry? I'm

Drew Smith: 5:09

Very ashamed. I got back into this temple to the art of plastic, the Toyota Corolla hybrid and pulled silently out of the airport car park.

Joe Simpson: 5:22

out of this place.

Drew Smith: 5:23

And then proceeded to spend the next four days seeing how high I could get the percentage of EV driving. Much to the irritation of every other road user in Melbourne. Because,

Joe Simpson: 5:40

is, uh

Drew Smith: 5:42

To keep the Corolla from kicking in to ice mode, I had to drive like the proverbial grandma. Like, it was

Joe Simpson: 5:52

This reminds me of the times back in the early, early noughties I spent with Mark Chalmer in California, where we, we happened upon this idea that Prius or Prii or whatever the plural of Prius is crept around, like, sort of 10 miles an hour around the streets of Santa Monica, largely because their owners were trying to keep them in the sort of pure electric mode. But also this reminds me of, uh, one sort of infamous incident, which I've never let Mark live down, where he dropped me at LAX for my flight back to London, and he was spending a couple more days in LA. And just as I was going through security, Mark rang me and was like, help. And I was like, what's happened? He's like, I. I can't make the car work. And I was like, what do you mean you can't make the car work? And for anyone who ever drove, uh, I think a generation two or three Prius, it had the most strange gear stick solution, which is a bit like a cross between a Renault four and a Merc column shift, where you had to sort of pull it out and down to go into drive. And Mark couldn't get the car to go into drive. So it reminds me of this story. A Toyota obviously have form.

Drew Smith: 7:08

Yep. So that was my joyous experience with a, with a, with a hybrid in Melbourne. Um, safe to say I will be not rushing to repeat it if only for the sake of saving my dignity. Um, Joe, let's, let's move on to Milan. You've been in Milan. Ah,

Joe Simpson: 7:31

Um, well,

Drew Smith: 7:32

Paris to Berlin and every city I've been in. I'm hungry for love.

Joe Simpson: 7:37

going to be a show tonight. Um, uh, it's worth saying that it's 10 o'clock at night where I am and five in the morning where Drew is. The time differences are not our friends at this time of year. So I'm tired. He's tired. It's going

Drew Smith: 7:52

Well, the caffeine's

Joe Simpson: 7:53

bit crazy.

Drew Smith: 7:53

me.

Joe Simpson: 7:56

Um, so yes, Milan, uh, I was there for, uh, Milan design week, or as you, uh, said, it used to be called Salone del Mobile, um, or Salone del Mobile. Um, and yes, it used to be, uh, ostensibly a furniture fair, but as, uh, many people will know, it's grown in sort of, um, stature presence and everything it kind of, uh, represents. Um, so, you know, it's in Italy, you'd expect the fashion world to be very much to the fore, but now. Um, in Milan, or during Milan Design Week, there is an array of kind of industrial, uh, product design being shown there, and, um, I think many of, uh, kind of a big name brand you care to mention from a Google to a Samsung, an Ikea, a Gucci, a BMW, a Porsche, they're all there and putting on some really quite, um, spectacular installations, some exhibitions and shows that are really worth your time. And actually, I think for us as designers are really inspiring.

Drew Smith: 8:56

Now, before we kind of dive into what you saw, like I've, I, you know, I used to do a lot of research in Europe and Milan and Munich were sort of two cities to which I was often sent on behalf of clients.

Joe Simpson: 9:12

Yeah.

Drew Smith: 9:12

And I always thought they were kind of a very interesting inverse of one another. Munich was sort of the most Italian city in Germany and Milan was the most German city in Italy. And both of, both of them, In their own ways entirely charming as a result, um, and If we think about what the Munich Motor Show has become, again, it starts to feel like Milan Design Week is almost becoming the, the inverse. Munich, the Munich Motor Show, of course, has really shifted our understanding of how motor shows can be. It's about automotive brands inserted into the city quite often with these beautiful sort of design led stands, Not necessarily all about the products. And I think what we started to see this year, Joe in Milan was essentially a, kind of a similar version of that.

Joe Simpson: 10:11

You've essentially took the words out of my mouth. I think now these two shows, for certainly for us in Europe, Milan and Munich are the real two to go to and they are special and worthy because of what you've just said. They're sort of really woven into the city. They're part of it. You're not in, I mean, you can go out to, I can't remember what the place is called in Milan, but in Munich you can go up to the Messe. and go into an exhibition hall, but that's not really not what it's about. It is about being in a place. It's about the way that the brands insert themselves into Palazzo in Milan. It's about sort of, you know, the kind of, uh, the doorway that just opens onto a kind of wild world of furniture. And I think to riff off what you just said, Let's talk a little bit about the car brands because there were many car brands in Milan this year. Um, just to rattle a few off, we had BMW, Audi, Porsche, um, Kia were there with quite a big installation. Um, there were smaller sort of offerings from the Italian brands. So, um, Alpha had, had a sort of thing taken over the shop. Lancia were in the Cassina furniture, um, sort of store with the Ypsilon. And then obviously there is a brand GAC, uh, the Chinese GAC brand actually has a small studio, um, down in Milan and they really use that to their advantage during the design week and they'd done, uh, three sorts of small concept cars at quarter scale. And, um, Stefan Janin who runs that studio very much is kind of, you know, Wanting to make it a sort of part of the, um, if you like the sort of the tour of, uh, uh, from design week and I'm, I should add here that I'm really grateful to him. He sort of took me and showed me around the studio and we had a nice chat and even enough to give me some of his coffee beans. Uh, they have a, a grinder and a coffee set up. It's a very, very simple studio. There's literally it. There's a studio space, there's a kind of coffee and kitchen space. There's a display space where they've got their Barchetta concept currently. And then there's this amazing library. They inherited the space, um, from, I forget the name of the guy. And basically the library is kind of untouched. So there's a kind of backroom library with an incredible array of books. And, uh, yeah, it was, it was fascinating to see, but really lovely space.

Drew Smith: 12:33

Do they have, do they have clay plates there? Is there, is there clay or is it all virtual?

Joe Simpson: 12:37

No, so it's all virtual. Um, so yeah, it's, it's a very much a kind of a satellite studio. And I think, as you said, using that sort of cultural hub of Milan and the kind of the sort of really picking up on the influence of things like the fashion industry based there, um, to kind of inspire and influence GAC design.

Drew Smith: 13:01

Now, I mean, it, it, it, this isn't the first year, of course, that car companies have had a presence at Milan. I can, I can actually, gosh, years and years and years ago, Lexus were doing installations. And as is so often the case with Lexus, kind of quiet forerunners of things that everybody else starts to fall in line with. How How are we seeing the brand show up at Milan and who's doing it well? And what does, what does well or good look like in this context?

Joe Simpson: 13:41

Yeah, it's a very good question. Um, so to answer the first part of it, um, who's showing up and in what way, um, in different ways, um, so As you might expect, um, a brand like Audi very much going in for quite sort of, I suppose, uh, bombastic or kind of big name, probably high budget, um, sort of installations. So they'd taken over one of the Palazzo, um, Um, and they'd done a collaboration with Bjarke Ingels, um, from big architecture, sort of very famous Danish architect, um, probably the sort of the name, the star architect right now in the world. And it was basically, if you looked at it in plan view, it was like a cross. And what Bjarke had done was created these kind of mirrors. So. Basically, you had a cross in the middle of the palazzo. So dividing the space up into four quarters and they were kind of mirrored. So you were getting in the quarter, you created a kind of the whole. So in one quarter, there were just some sort of like tables for hanging out. In another quarter, there was like an amphitheater where there were talks and things going on. Another quarter, there was a display of ADIs technology. In another quarter, there were two new Q6 e trons. Um, and so. And actually, the effect, uh, with the sunlight and with the building that was kind of surrounding it was really quite dramatic. And if you got the right angle, you could kind of sort of create these sort of entire, um, sort of singular spaces within the sort of, within the Palazzo, just from one quadrant. Um, nonetheless, I would say that, um, To me, it was one of the less successful, um, sort of branding, uh, sort of spaces very much because Audi seemed to be trying to make the car sort of front and center of this. And, uh, as we touched on before the Q6 e tron, which I think we saw last Munich show as a kind of prototype, uh, was And it's somewhat disappointing. Um, In terms of like Audi once being the masters of perceived quality, certainly no longer, uh, looking at the interior of that

Drew Smith: 15:44

This is, this is the one that has like the passenger display screen that looks like it's just sort of been bodged on, doesn't it?

Joe Simpson: 15:51

that someone thought they might add that to sort of like, you know, uh, you

Drew Smith: 15:55

shit, we need a screen for China! Quick!

Joe Simpson: 15:58

yeah,

Drew Smith: 15:59

Like, grab somebody's laptop, rip the screen off, whack it on

Joe Simpson: 16:03

got to final day to judgment and someone went, shit, put a screen in on the passenger side. Yeah. Um, so, um, but let's not, let's not dwell on that. I think the point is that I felt in general where the cars were not the center of attention and they played either more of a supporting role or were just taken out of the picture altogether, they were much more successful. So Porsche had done this very interesting sort of, you know, Uh, rope net in, sort of, installation sculpture in black and white in, in one of the other, um, spaces. Um, it almost, for a moment, I didn't think they had a car at all. There was a kind of, um, it's a very lovely one of their classic, uh, 9 T and we get this wrong, be shouted up by various people, but a very early red nine 11 in a sort of garden area out the back. Um, but just very much playing a sort of secondary supporting role. The real star was this kind of giant webbing of white and black net that you could climb on that made some fascinating sort of photographs and as people kind of explored it and sort of moved around, it was really sort of the exploration of movement. Um, and. And they're giving away some nice posters, which seem to be very much a kind of, uh, you know, the swag to have, uh, from the sort of auto side of Milan.

Drew Smith: 17:21

Now, how did, how did the Koreans show up? Because if we think about their, they, they seem very ascendancy from a, from a design perspective. What was their, what was their representation like in Milan? Um.

Joe Simpson: 17:37

Kia had, uh, a, a taken over this sort of big industrial space. And there, I thought their, um, installation was one of the most interesting. I can't remember the names of the artists that they collaborated with. But it was the, the, the, The topic was around their opposite United, uh, design strategy. And there were, um, there were four rooms, um, and essentially, One of the rooms was very much a sort of, um, a physical space with sort of material and wallpaper and a sort of, um, a sort of mobile hanging from the ceiling that was gently turning. And what was really interesting was, and this was a little one of the trends of the show, there is, they're encouraging people to pick up pens and write notes. On the wallpaper and write little messages and this is a bit of a theme. Actually, Ikea, we're doing the same thing where this theme of just giving people a pen and giving people a sticker and asking you to write something and then to start to actually create the installation with that sort of like this. Quite fun, quite engaging, quite welcoming approach. Um, so that was, that was really nice. And then the other rooms were mainly based on, uh, light and sort of light installation and light choreographed with music and here Kia hit on another one of the trends of the show, which I very much thought was the way that you were, or the brands were playing with sensors and the way that smell, the Or sound and light and music and color and texture and then even taste were being put together and choreographed into sort of one multisensory experience and the room that Kia had, um, in the back of their installation was kind of incredible as an experience and they had in the center part of it a band which played sort of within this kind of hung, uh, sort of world of different lighting beads and trays, which would then sort of vary their height. And what was fascinating about the Keir space was there's a car to be seen. Upstairs, they had another space where they were doing live music throughout the event, and there were small bits of text explaining how they commissioned the artist, um, and what it meant relative to the kind of opposites united strategy where you basically have two words and it's a play on the two words being sort of opposites and how you unite them within design. What I understand from a colleague is that it's actually a development of what they've been doing the past two, three years. It's not a brand new exhibition. They're building on What they started and working with certain artists and developing some of these installations, which is very interesting in the context of if you think about developing a strategy out.

Drew Smith: 20:25

Well, also, I mean, just if we think about the three exhibitions that you've just described, Audi, Porsche, and Kia, right? If you think about the levels of confidence that each of those three brands are currently displaying in terms of their design strategy as manifested in product, I think it's really sort of a fascinating reflection that Audi is like desperately hanging on the, onto the car. Porsche is like, Shit, we'd better put one of our greats in here just to kind of keep the link and Kia's like, actually, you know what? We're just, we're just gonna go, we're gonna go full abstract.

Joe Simpson: 21:11

Yeah. And then, and then park four EV9s outside to shuttle people around, which is the only statement you need. Because to be honest, on the streets of Milan, an EV9 in that blue or in black makes quite a big statement. I mean, yeah, it looks really good.

Drew Smith: 21:31

Before we move on to Beijing, I look, I think for any of our listeners who have any ounce of petrol moving through their blood, there is one car that was shown at Milan that all of us are going to be interested in, and that is the Lancia Ypsilon. Now, for people who aren't aware of the significance of the Ypsilon to looking out, Uh, you may have listened to our episode about the Renault Baccarat, the Renault 5 Baccarat. It's, it's delightful precisely because it is, or historically has been this very nicely turned out, very small car. I mean, the last generation we can kind of forget, but the Y10 and the first generation Ypsilon were quite bizarre, quite lovely, and very much missed. So how did the new one land? Mm, mm,

Joe Simpson: 22:31

I, I think, think that to continue this theme, first of all, of what car brands are doing, it was a really nice decision of Lancia to put it into the Cassina showroom. So they have, as some listeners will know, basically been working with Cassina as they develop their new strategy out. Cassina is a Italian furniture company, chairs and stuff like that. And there's. A collaboration with Cassina as part of the Y10. It's kind of the Y10. There you go. Uh, the new Ypsilon. So there's a kind of, there's an element of the IP, uh, which is kind of, which is trimmed in leather and branded with Cassina. I think it's probably optional. Um, but it was really interesting to kind of see them try to make that link because they've kind of, they've worked with Cassina that it was, you know, it was in the, the concept car, their chairs. Um, and so really trying to, I think, um, land or route Lancia into that sort of, um, Italian luxury furniture space. How well it worked. I think it could have been done slightly better than just dropping a car into the corner of the kind of furniture showroom. Um, it was a little bit cramped in the space that it was in. Nonetheless, I think the, the Ipsilon itself is a. Funny thing in that it I feel this generation of small, um, Stellantis cars were very much developed for Peugeot and very much, uh, Peugeot led and Peugeot's architecture and Peugeot's sort of cockpit architecture, which the others are having to try to sort of bend away from its will a bit. Um, I, I would say that maybe some of the kind of architecture and hard points is not maybe what the Ypsilon wants to be. Nonetheless, If I look at it in a positive light, I think to your point about this kind of small luxury brand and the Baccara and all those kind of reference points, it, it kind of hits the nail on the head. The, the, uh, the, the sea trim, the blue velour and the color in the showroom was in dark blue. Blue Velour, and we'll put some pictures, um, into the, splice them into the video, was so nice. Uh, it's such a kind of like a sort of a strong, uh, really sort of lands your touch, um, and there's some really nice elements on that car, like the tail lamps. It seemed to be, when I talked to people, it seemed to be sort of a mix between people just like, no, whatever. And then people are like, Oh no, I really dig it. I really get in, get it.

Drew Smith: 25:07

Kind of like the first Ipsilon, really.

Joe Simpson: 25:09

yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, so yeah, I thought that was, you know. That was, uh, really kind of, and it's, it's just, it's, to be honest, it's just nice to be able to go into a furniture room, have a look at some furniture, and then have a look at a car, contextualize it, and then just walk out again with no real sense of, you know, they, the mild ridiculousness that has been the land you stand at auto shows in previous years, where I think the joke was, as the cars got older, and sort of, uh, less, you know, sort of, um, competitive. The more showstand girls they would just put on and drape themselves over the cars. And it was just kind of really sad and, you know, like puerile. So to have done away with that, yes, definitely a strong move and, and interestingly where Lancia goes next, um,

Drew Smith: 26:01

giving me a little bit of hope that we might see one of Lancia's other furniture maker, um, uh, collaborations revived. And that is of course the one with Poltrona Frau. So

Joe Simpson: 26:15

who were there, who were there in force as well, you know, and doing some very, very kind of fun stuff. And, and yeah, I think. I would say Poltrona Frau had this sort of world of purple, uh, in their, in their sort of display space. And I was sort of, to your point, I was thinking about how the Lancia, the, the Ypsilon was presented in this really lovely dark blue, but how the Y10 was, do you remember, available in so many interesting colors and how great it would be to get some of the sort of purples that Portra Na Frau had into, or onto, green. The new Ypsilon and I think in general, if Lancia is this kind of luxury brand, it should probably develop in that way where they, they maybe do collaborations where they regularly change the color material palettes, because one of the really nice things about this Milan, and really, it's the first one first show that's come back in full force where people have not been wearing masks and things post COVID. The return to COVID 19. Color, richness and a certain opulence, really deep oranges, a lot of deep purple, real smacking sort of pops of yellow left, right and center and very much with what Google did very much centered around color, their exhibition, which was just phenomenal. Um, it's really, really nice to actually be at a, or in a city and in a design event where, uh, Particularly in terms of this color, there felt like there was just such optimism and life, um, and sort of a sense of vibrancy, which is very Italian. And really, you know, I got a lot of creative inspiration and sort of, uh, energy from.

Drew Smith: 27:55

Final note on that, uh, this would be just so on trend or so on theme for, for the Ypsilon, because that, that first generation Ypsilon, the slightly odd looking but deeply lovable one, was, if I remember correctly, the first product to bring essentially mass customization through color. Yeah. But, uh, yeah, I mean, it's, it's an excellent book. I also read a little bit about sort of the, um, the the empower of your brain to, um, to, to do things in the real world, but it's also, it's really important to understand some of the sort of order in which you are driven by these big things, because sometimes you will be driven by You kind of the, the

Joe Simpson: 28:37

B sector car.

Drew Smith: 28:38

thing, which, which is just so awesome. Taking, taking a bit of a counterpoint to this, this, this idea of sort of fun and opulence and richness. One of the things that seemed to emerge, at least from my brief scan of the Beijing show, if we shift across to China now, is that. This emergence of a greater sense of rationalism of things sort of being paired back a little bit. We're seeing more function and less fizz starting to emerge in some of the Chinese, um, both concept and, and, and, and product, uh, you know, production design.

Joe Simpson: 29:24

Didn't, didn't you think it was interesting how, um, I feel like it's almost like the growing up of of an industry where, um, I was, I was looking at, um, Some of NEO's announcements and they launched the new like, heavily revised ET7, which I think is the one that, um, uh, the kind of, uh, William and Lee, um, their head drove like over a thousand kilometers and it has 150 kilowatt battery. And they, you know, in this price bloodbath that we talked about before, that's going on in China. Nio is holding their prices. So they, they launched this car, um, over 400, 000 RMB, which for the Chinese market is pretty punchy. Um, and they're

Drew Smith: 30:09

so what's that in

Joe Simpson: 30:11

Uh, I knew you're going to ask me that. And I, um, I don't know. Um, but the kind of, the general sort of mid premium market in China is at sort of between 200 and 300, 000. So if you're talking.

Drew Smith: 30:28

51, 000 euros

Joe Simpson: 30:31

calculation while I waffled.

Drew Smith: 30:32

USD, that's 55, 000 USD. So yeah, 400, 000 RMB. It's quite pricey for Chinese mid market

Joe Simpson: 30:40

For that, for that market, but then to also hear that about how they were working together on, uh, expanding the JV, which as I understand it already includes Chang'an, Geely, JAC and Cherry, which is to, Um, add to and, uh, extend their battery swap, uh, sort of network and work with those other OEMs to standardize the battery and the swap mechanism such that it kind of betters and helps the entire industry. This feels like a big change in terms of approach for some of the Chinese brands.

Drew Smith: 31:26

was just going to say, didn't Tesla once promise. Battery swapping. I mean, didn't they once promise to provide the charging standard for the North American market? Sorry, let's not touch Tesla

Joe Simpson: 31:38

let's not go there. I think if you want to read about their, their ill fated charge swap thing, there's a, there's a chapter in Ed Niedermyer's book, uh, Ludicrous, The Unvarnished Truth, which I think, which I think describes just how, uh,

Drew Smith: 31:49

ludicrous.

Joe Simpson: 31:51

how should we say like, yeah, ludicrous that, that was. Um, but yeah, it feels like a sort of maturation.

Drew Smith: 31:58

yeah, like, well, we're, we're also starting to see a consolidation, right. And I mean, this is, this is what happens as any market sort of really starts to mature, you have this explosion of new entrants and then, you know, as conditions tighten, people are like, Oh Christ, maybe we can't run our like battery swap network all on its own when there's four other companies trying to do exactly the same thing.

Joe Simpson: 32:25

But I think the other thing about what, um, uh, sorry, NIO are doing is that when you, when you think about it, it's quite basic economics, the very, very low prices we've talked about before in China, you know, these amazing cars that you can get for sort of say 200, 000 RMB. It's a clear play to win market share. You're not making any money there. Everyone knows that people aren't making any money in that market. I think this is the first time we're seeing a Chinese brand, you know, trying to say, okay. We are maybe going to try to sacrifice, we're going to be willing to sacrifice sales and market share for trying to hold the line, actually make some money on the cars and position ourselves as a sort of truly premium brand. And we've talked about NIO quite a bit on and off, but never directly. It's not really working for them in Europe, as far as we understand. Nonetheless, we both have exposure and experience with their products. We, they are very impressive and certainly in the Chinese market and the ecosystem they built up around the brand, it is very much a premium offer. So I, uh, I think it would be interesting to see how that works out for them in terms of how their, their sales hold up with trying to hold this higher pricing.

Drew Smith: 33:41

and, and it, it, it will also be interesting to see if this means that we start to see that decimation of European brands, which has been happening sort of in the lower to mid pricing segments start to move up,

Joe Simpson: 33:59

Yeah, yeah, because we've already started to see some, um, some casualties. Uh, we talked about Hi Fi, uh, which would very much in this sort of upper echelon in terms of pricing. Um, and there's a lot of, um, uh, there's a lot of conversation, I think around, uh, Zeta at the moment, but I think to your point drew about the sort of The impact on the Western brands, the other thing that I thought was interesting about, uh, the Beijing show. And I, I'm, I wanted to get your opinion on was, I thought it was notable how the Western brands came back and seem to be actually trumpeting their new JVs. Or investments with the Chinese brands. So we have almost like a role reversal for those that know the, what's happened over the past 20 years is that most of the Western brands have had to set up JVs in order to sell in China. The Chinese partner took sort of roughly 50%, and then what's happened is the Chinese have learned and then have gone on to better and more speedily sort of create their own market. And now the, many of the Western brand sales are sort of falling off a cliff. Um, and. What's happening now is that you've got brands like Volkswagen actually starting up new, uh, sort of joint ventures, not joint ventures, maybe, but investments into, or sort of agreements with in their case XPeng, where they get to use XPeng's technology platform. They showed the, um, VW ID code, which I think was sort of loosely on the, on the XPeng platform. And actually really trying to push that, you know, we're actually, we're using kind of Chinese technology and know how here. Uh, that is an absolutely fantastic turnaround in terms of positioning compared to sort of even 10 years, but certainly 20 years ago. Um, and you also had Stellantis who weren't at the show, but have recently sort of invested heavily. I think maybe bought the majority of LeapMotor and apparently Stellantis executives at the show saying that LeapMotor was their 14th brand in the Stellantis group. Um, so really, really interesting sort of, uh, change tone direction here.

Drew Smith: 36:22

Well, and, and, and I think it also casts in an interesting light, um, Elon's recent trip to China, and the announcements around full self driving, right, which of course is increasingly looking like the source of, um, a potential downfall, or at least a significant component of a downfall in, in the North American market. Um, Elon went to China and has been trumpeting the fact that, that full self driving is now a full go in, in the Chinese market. Um, so as, as you say, we're sort of seeing this interesting sort of reverse injection, um, With China, I think the, the, the, the Tesla thing raises a whole bunch of very interesting questions around, okay, well, if full self driving is a, is an AI driven model that needs to be processed on Tesla's computers, then. How is that data coming out of China and is it going to be processed in North America? And if it's not, and Tesla's going to have to install its computers in China, then surely the Americans are going to have something to say about that. But

Joe Simpson: 37:37

Say about that. Isn't it, isn't it some kind of, um, uh, tie up with Baidu though? Isn't it, is it going to run on Baidu's servers? Or have I made that up?

Drew Smith: 37:49

So I think you still come to the question of the export of IP from North, North America and setting up that, that artificial intelligence IP in, in, in China, but yeah, like there's, there's just a bunch of really, we talked on the last show about how certainly from a product availability point of view, this de globalization, um, And yet what we're seeing, um, in terms of IP is maybe that, that, that is, that is not going to be the case.

Joe Simpson: 38:30

No.

Drew Smith: 38:31

because, just because, just because the Germans, for example, uh, have been at such a disadvantage for so long in, in the Chinese market.

Joe Simpson: 38:40

Yeah. Um, I want to close on the, um, So a couple of, a couple of things. Um, the first thing is I wanted to, maybe not challenge, but you said there's a sort of, um, it's becoming more sort of, uh, you didn't use these words, but you said almost like more, I took it to really more sort of more normalized, more sort of, um, professional, sophisticated, but I still think when you look at the, some of the cars that were shown, there's still interesting exploration of typology happening in the Chinese market that isn't really happening in Europe and the U. S. Um, so I really, into the Chang'an E07 as it's now called. We've actually seen this sort of preview of this. It's changed its name a few times. This is the one that's kind of like a jacked up fastback, except the rear is basically a pickup bed. Um, uh, sort of where you might have the trunk. It's fascinating new typology. And, uh, can we just briefly, Drew, talk about the Zika mix?

Drew Smith: 39:44

Yes!

Joe Simpson: 39:45

uh,

Drew Smith: 39:47

Shout out to the Zika crew, uh,

Joe Simpson: 39:49

out to the Zika crew, who are very, uh,

Drew Smith: 39:51

we, we, we know a lot of them. We're quite close to a few of them.

Joe Simpson: 39:55

I was gonna say I see some of them on a typical given day. Um, they share the same hometown with me. Um, but yes, I mean, Zika Mix, which is the sort of passenger version of what we believe will become, uh, Waymo's RoboCab that's coming from Zika. But, um, such a great sort of, uh, really interesting typology, very sort of unapologetically a monovolume. But with a Bloody incredible interior, and things like the door opening system, no b pillar, and, you know, um, what was your take on it?

Drew Smith: 40:30

I just sheer delight because I think, I think what they have managed to do is what I have been bitching and moaning about, um, I think ever since we started recording this show is that we haven't really seen strong examples of, um, car makers taking advantage of the packaging freedoms afforded by, um, From First Principles, EV, drivetrains and, and, and packages. And I think the, the Lee Auto Mega was kind of the first hint that we might start to see something different. Um, I think in some ways, and bearing in mind, I haven't seen either of these cars in the flesh. The Zika Mix is, is in some ways even more impressive. Um, because it is A beautifully resolved, but fairly unassuming exterior that just opens up to reveal this breath of fresh air. It's like, Oh, wow. Wow. So I, you know, I, I would love to see more of this.

Joe Simpson: 41:46

Yeah,

Drew Smith: 41:46

We, we should be able to do more than, I mean, great start Zeekr like love, love the mono volume. What else can you do? And I know like there is the talent on that bench to go really, really far with this kind of stuff. And I'm just super happy to see it.

Joe Simpson: 42:04

And without wanting to sound like I'm ass kissing people that I know quite well, I think it's really nice that the team in Gothenburg, uh, is led, you know, they sort of, you've obviously got Stefan is head of that team, but then from an exterior and interior and current material, it's a really like young team. It's people sort of our age and younger. Yeah. Who are leading those teams and really showing what, uh, fresh talent can do. So, um, big, sort of big props to the likes of Ewan and, and, uh, and Sergio and all the guys, uh,

Drew Smith: 42:38

Javi, Marcus. Shout outs, shout outs. Um, before, before we move on from, from, from Beijing, we can't, we absolutely cannot ignore the Xiaomi SU7.

Joe Simpson: 42:51

I mean, no, no, it was funny because you said, uh, sort of what's next and obviously, uh, one of our sort of, uh, well, friends, fa no, we are fans of Chris Bangle, uh, was, we think, somehow, uh, involved in, in that car,

Drew Smith: 43:07

Such a weird video.

Joe Simpson: 43:09

you know, and he signs off that very weird video by going, what's next? And, uh, without wanting to jump the gun on this, I'm very curious to understand what will come next from Xiaomi because it's an amazing sort of first product. Um, But Drew, to talk, to come back to the, to the car itself, the SU7, it dominated the headlines from Beijing. Uh, the only car, I believe with a queue to get on the stand that trailed around the exhibition hall, as far as I can understand, but already, um, in the showrooms for Xiaomi as well. And with, um, pre orders that are really quite impressive and, you know, sort of piling up by the day, and it seems to be the car that the Chinese really want.

Drew Smith: 43:53

Well, and I, I'm going to paste into the video version of this podcast, a little, um, uh, TikTok video that has come out of China, which demonstrates in a video. in a subtle but really unbelievably significant way, just how different the thinking is around this car. And it

Joe Simpson: 44:16

the, the accessorization of physical controls and things. Yeah,

Drew Smith: 45:52

Chris Bangles sketches of what would become like the Opel Corsa, I think,

Joe Simpson: 45:59

the junior, the junior concept, the modular. Yes. Yes.

Drew Smith: 46:04

You know,

Joe Simpson: 46:04

Chris has patents on a lot of those things. I believe he said on, on those modules. I, oh, I did

Drew Smith: 46:11

Well, isn't it funny that Chris is kind of involved in Xiaomi somehow, and all of a sudden we see influencers showing how all of these accessories being unboxed and attached to the car. And we're not just talking functional accessories like, thank fucking Christ, being able to attach physical buttons to your touchscreen. But also things like adding sort of LED light bars. Right? And cameras and all sorts of weird and wonderful stuff. And again, it's like we are in an age where we have the technology, both software and hardware to enable this level of sort of personalization of the interior space of the car. Nobody's really done it like this. And, and it's just super cool to see. And that's before you even get to the stuff that we've talked about ad infinitum, which is how the SU7 integrates itself into a broader digital ecosystem.

Joe Simpson: 47:15

Yeah. Yes. So fascinating to see what comes next from them. And, uh, yeah, I can't wait to have a play with, uh, SU7. Um, but I think that sort of sums up Beijing. Anything else you want to, uh, mention?

Drew Smith: 47:34

I don't want to touch Tesla. I mean, just a bit of a rolling shit show at the moment, isn't it? Like,

Joe Simpson: 47:48

Should show a bin fire, you know, like soap opera. Uh,

Drew Smith: 47:53

I think the, the only, the only, the only thing I want to comment on is, is, is what has happened with the Supercharger team. And I think we've, you know, we, we, we, we made a joke, funnily enough, I think it was in the last show about what might happen if the Supercharger network was nationalized. Um, and I think, you know, the, the rug pull, the rug pull that this represents for. The OEMs selling EVs in North America that adopted the North American charging standard. So Tesla's charging plug, um, is quite significant and there will be, I have a feeling a lot of scratched heads, um, and squeaky bums in conference rooms trying to work out, okay, shoot, what does this actually mean for. Not just our business, but also it's, it's impact on EV adoption, because it really, it really, it's something that could have an enormous chilling effect on, you know, consumers willingness to invest.

Joe Simpson: 49:06

I have two very, sort of, opposing takes on this. One is that, the apparently all the standards when this, these deals were done was sort of signed over and opened up. And in terms of the charging standard and the kind of general adoption and all the other OEMs moving to it, it is now the North American standard. It's not, well, it is the Tesla standard, but it's very much North American standard. It's understood it can be built out by other people. So there's not really a risk that something in that Side of, you know, the actual plugs and the technology is kind of pulled away as a rug. But as you say The supercharging network has been important and powerful, not simply because of how and where and how dense the network was built out in a way which meant long road trips were possible. It's been about that network's reliability and if you like uptime compared particularly to the horror stories that I think our American friends and colleagues talk about with someone like Electrify America. And I think the worry then here is, well, if that entire team is gone, what happens now? What happens when charges go offline? What happens? I've seen a lot of things on threads and Twitter this week going, we own a hotel. We were about, literally about to kind of have this installed. This wiring was in, and now we don't know what's going on. Lots of kind of questions like that. And I think, I think, as you say, if that supercharged network suddenly starts to falter in terms of its reliability and uptime, that creates a huge headache potentially for everybody. Um, because you've got all that existing base of Tesla owners who rely on it, and it opening up to a much, much wider base. And I think, It is the only thing in North America that's kind of there to support the rollout and, you know, sort of widespread adoption of EVs. And if it goes flaky, uh, I would say that that causes potentially some very, very big, big issues for that market. And for all of us who are trying to sell electric vehicles into it.

Drew Smith: 51:22

Well, we've been in the fuck around phase of Tesla for quite some time. We are now very much in the find out phase and it will be interesting to see how things have evolved by our next show, Joe.

Joe Simpson: 51:40

Because it's literally moving that fast.

Drew Smith: 51:43

It is literally moving that fast. Um, I think, I think that'll do us

Joe Simpson: 51:49

It will.

Drew Smith: 51:50

Um, thank you everybody so much for joining us. We'd love to have you along for the ride. If you like our show, please give us a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify Podcasts. If you're on YouTube, hit that bell, subscribe. Um, but for now this, oh yeah. And tell your friends. Very much so, dear friends. Um, for now, this has been Looking Out The Podcast. My name is Drew Smith.

Joe Simpson: 52:17

And my name is Joe Simpson. And thank you very much for listening.

Drew Smith: 52:22

for listening.

Joe Simpson: 52:24

And watching.

Drew Smith: 52:27

See you in two weeks, everyone. Bye.

Joe Simpson: 52:31

Yeah, uh, maybe we shouldn't talk about Tesla, but I figured if we ran out of things to say, you might want to go on a waffle, uh, a waffle? Sorry, it's very rude. A rant about, about Elon, just waffle, yeah.

Drew Smith: 52:44

I'm good at a waffle.

Joe Simpson: 52:46

waffling about Tesla again.

Drew Smith: 52:50

Oh, God, here comes the angry man shouting at the moon. Get Off my lawn, Elon!